The difference between Gypsy Jazz and American swing guitar rhythm styles?

[Hep To The Jive]

I was asked this same question recently, and the explanation I gave I'm not sure was scientifically correct. Basically to me GJ is more accented on 2 and 4, more upstrokes involved, generally more percussive and in your face. The American style is more smooth, evenly strummed down strokes all along. What do the experts here think?

Also I realized on the American swing recordings the guitar is always sort of hidden in the mix. You can't really hear as much as feel it. As it should be. I see it as extension of the drum sound. In GJ the guitar IS the drums.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[Webby]

That is an interesting question!
I'm not too experienced in traditional gypsy settings, but I think I'd agree with pretty much everything you stated.

I'd add, that to me gypsy rhythm always feels more two-beat oriented. That's probably what you meant with the heavier accented 2 and 4.
I always feel like note duration plays a huge role there. I think 1 and 3 are longer than 2 and 4 "dooh-dot dooh-dot".

Paul

[docsteve]

Hep, agreed on all points.

Paul, I was at a workshop with Joscho Stephan once, and I played a Swing-based rhythm pattern, holding the 1 and 3 longer than the 2 and 4. Joscho told me off immediately, saying that this wasn't the proper style. All beats had to be equally short, with the accent on 2 and 4.

As far as I noticed, gypsy swing also uses different chord voicings than American swing – less shell voicings, more four-note voicings played on the middle strings.

Hope that helps, Stephan

[mr. beaumont]

As you all know, rhythm guitar is a bit of an obsession of mine...

Definitely the 2 feel...but it's all in the accent, the notes are all short.

There's definitely that little upstroke thing. Some people are really particular about it. It's like a grace note, like a little "swish." I was told if you can't do it, leave it out.

Re: percussiveness...I actually think the American style is more percussive...but the European style is more noticeable. But you are definitely hearing the pitches of those strings...I guess it's like in American style you are one drum in a set, and in European style, you are the whole set...and the piano.

Chord forms...similar in some senses...American style chords might come from some of the same ideas but they are pared down...and no 5th string. 5th string all the time in European style. Sometimes 5th AND 6th!

[Webby]

Hep, agreed on all points.

Paul, I was at a workshop with Joscho Stephan once, and I played a Swing-based rhythm pattern, holding the 1 and 3 longer than the 2 and 4. Joscho told me off immediately, saying that this wasn't the proper style. All beats had to be equally short, with the accent on 2 and 4.

As far as I noticed, gypsy swing also uses different chord voicings than American swing – less shell voicings, more four-note voicings played on the middle strings.

Hope that helps, Stephan

Thank you for pointing that out! I was not aware of that!

[olejason]

Gypsy Jazz rhythm varies quite a bit based on time period and region. If you listen to Django recordings in chronological order you'll hear a lot of variation over the years and it definitely wasn't always the short percussive style that is so prominent today. You'll hear some current players like Dennis Chang and Duved Dunayevsky playing the 30's style rhythms in a more authentic way. In general though the emphasis on the 2 and 4 should be very subtle, it shouldn't be a prominent difference like you often hear newer players trying to do. The upstroke/swish is also not always used.

Dennis has a number of videos on the subject on his channel but this is a good place to start:

[Alter]

One technical difficulty for me trying to play Gypsy Jazz was the slight muting thing you have to do accenting 2 and 4. I'm still not good at it, but playing a few gigs on the style helped, especially strumming along with another guitarist, cause you kind of get the vibe..

American style to me seems a lot less percussive and even.

[Christian Miller]

If you go back to the 30s, really that much? The Hot Club played American style hot jazz. Most rhythm players back then played big chords and the bass often played in two.

BUT

Most people think of post war Freddie Green as American rhythm guitar as compared to the Manouche La Pompe style which evolved from the Hot Club rhythm section style and they are most certainly not the same.


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[Christian Miller]

One technical difficulty for me trying to play Gypsy Jazz was the slight muting thing you have to do accenting 2 and 4. I'm still not good at it, but playing a few gigs on the style helped, especially strumming along with another guitarist, cause you kind of get the vibe..

American style to me seems a lot less percussive and even.

I think Freddie Green always played quite even, even in the early days. The Kansas city flat four.

That said modern Manouche players often play more of a backbeat than say, this feel, where the accent is really quite subtle.

What I hear is more that the 2 and 4 are placed slightly early compared to 1 and 3. This works well with a bass in 2.

Walter Page otoh was playing in 4 so Green needed to straighten out a little.

Btw the Django is from 1937 and the Basie from 1938. I think Basie was the more modern approach.


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[Reg]

I'm no expert... but I notice differences between the length of rhythmic phrases and accents, and the actual feel from subdivision. Which seem to have become even more so...during the last 60, 70 years.

Maybe from having to physically play time as compared to being able to create feel that implies time.

[Bop Head]

I'm no expert... but I notice differences between the length of rhythmic phrases and accents, and the actual feel from subdivision. Which seem to have become even more so...during the last 60, 70 years.

Maybe from having to physically play time as compared to being able to create feel that implies time.

Are you talking about "vanilla" four-to-the-bar rhythm guitar as well?

[RLetson]

You can see as well as hear the early QHCF rhythm playing on the 1939 film of "J'attandrai" that surfaced a few years back. (The short is "Le Jazz Hot," on YouTube at an address I can't put here lest the site try to insert it into the post.) There are quite a few clear shots of the rhythm players' right hands, nicely synched with the soundtrack.

That one-y and a two-y pulse (with the quick upstroke) became the template for the version of la pompe that gadjo players worked hard to replicate--and about which Michael Horowitz wrote a comprehensive descriptive/instructional book. (Michael did his research on a Fulbright, with mostly Dutch gypsy players, while working on his ethnomusicology doctorate.) I have vivid memories of players fussing over exactly how much upstroke to apply and winding up with a do-wacka-do sound.

As olejason points out, there's a range of gypsy-rhythm styles--historical, regional, personal--which suggests that there's plenty of room for departure from what Django got from his backing players. And FWIW, those early guys came through the musette tradition (as did Django), which might account for some of their sound--and the swing-waltz is part of that tradition.

[Stringswinger]

I play both styles. If there are no drums, I play Gypsy Style (with the slight upstroke to mimic a snare drum effect) regardless of whether it is a Gypsy jazz gig or a Trad jazz gig. The Gypsy style simply means that the drummerless combo now has drums. If there is a drummer, I play Freddy Green Style and lock with either the drummer or the bass player (whichever one is keeping time). If there is a piano, I use 3 note Freddy Green voicings. If I am the only chord player I will use 4 and 5 note voicings.

There can be a lot of overlap in the two styles and a lot of variations as well. I am not so sure that some of the explanations given in this thread are hard and fast rules. Listen to the top rhythm guitarists of both styles and use your ears to hear what they are doing.

[Christian Miller]

In terms of modern performance practice of this music, here’s James Chirillo with a drumless band

My two cents (sorry tupence) - there’s a lot of ways to play a four. As there’s a lot of way to play a snare or ride. Listen to what the rhythm section is doing. Well, the bass in this case. I don’t personally really care about playing ‘correct’ rhythm guitar Manouche jazz feel tbh. I like the old American music more; or I’m playing modern.

That said the old school upstroke La pompe feel reminds me a little of a New Orleans March or press roll feel.

[Christian Miller]

Anyway Denis Chang had a brilliant article about all of this, but I’m not sure I could track it down.


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[Christian Miller]

As you all know, rhythm guitar is a bit of an obsession of mine...

Definitely the 2 feel...but it's all in the accent, the notes are all short.

There's definitely that little upstroke thing. Some people are really particular about it. It's like a grace note, like a little "swish." I was told if you can't do it, leave it out.

Re: percussiveness...I actually think the American style is more percussive...but the European style is more noticeable. But you are definitely hearing the pitches of those strings...I guess it's like in American style you are one drum in a set, and in European style, you are the whole set...and the piano.

Chord forms...similar in some senses...American style chords might come from some of the same ideas but they are pared down...and no 5th string. 5th string all the time in European style. Sometimes 5th AND 6th!

Again to be an arse-

What you say is only true of the Van Eps school players which became the model for the post war style. It’s not generally true of the US music that was contemporary with the Hot Club era.

Denis Chang points out that Freddie was an unusual player for the time.

Music history is often like that tbh. It’s a bit like taking Bach as your model for Baroque music. You can argue and win on the grounds of Bach being the best Baroque composer, but he certainly wasn’t typical.


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[Christian Miller]

Here’s Teddy Bunn in 1938 for example

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[mr. beaumont]

Fair enough. When I say American style I specifically mean, Freddie Green post war. Which I think is what most people associate with a distinctive "American Style." It set a standard. As in before that there was no "standard."

I mean, if we really want to talk a truly American style that's Western Swing...or is it? It's a fucking polka.

[Hep To The Jive]

Fair enough. When I say American style I specifically mean, Freddie Green post war. Which I think is what most people associate with a distinctive "American Style." It set a standard. As in before that there was no "standard."

I mean, if we really want to talk a truly American style that's Western Swing...or is it? It's a fucking polka.

Yes, that what I had in mind too. I think that's what most people would think as the prime example.

[Hep To The Jive]

I think Freddie Green always played quite even, even in the early days. The Kansas city flat four.

That said modern Manouche players often play more of a backbeat than say, this feel, where the accent is really quite subtle.

What I hear is more that the 2 and 4 are placed slightly early compared to 1 and 3. This works well with a bass in 2.

Walter Page otoh was playing in 4 so Green needed to straighten out a little.

Btw the Django is from 1937 and the Basie from 1938. I think Basie was the more modern approach.


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Those two examples illustrate the difference well I think.

So to simplify, what I hear in GJ is (per Wendy) dooh-dot-dooh-dot... Sometimes dooh-dot do dooh-dot, with do being quick upstroke.
And American is dot-dot-dot-dot-dot.... pretty much all the way. In a nutshell.

[RLetson]

I mean, if we really want to talk a truly American style that's Western Swing...or is it? It's a fucking polka.

Well, much of western swing is a fucking two-step, which isn't exactly the same thing, at least on the dance floors I've observed. Though I suppose a determined Minnesotan or Wisconsinite raised on what hereabouts is called old-time might essay a polka if a quick enough boot-scooter came from the bandstand.

[Christian Miller]

Year Jeff I mean that goes back to my first post. I think that’s reasonable. My points are more about historical practice which might be fairly irrelevant. Most guitarists don’t go down the Duved or Munisteri route, including me tbh. And the basic two-step polka groove feel is the basis of so many musics including Klezmer and Russian music as well as country and early jazz.

(Early jazz can be thought of as one specific genre of a bunch of popular musics of that time including ragtime, society marches and popular waltzes that we tend to lump in together these days.)

Otoh it often seems to me people aren’t really that aware of how pre war American jazz actually sounded, especially with respect to the rhythm feels, which were very different to the post war approach. Jonathan has talked about this at length of course - it’s a bit of a bugbear for specialist musicians that are trying to book rhythm sections who don’t just default to post war swing. In guitar world, a lot of us end up playing ‘gypsy jazz’ almost by default, because there’s plenty of work in it.

As a musican as opposed to a jazz history nerd, there’s a lot going on with how rhythm sections function. I think it’s good to think of the guitar as a drum kit. We can play drums in different ways and rhythm guitar too. And honestly - a lot of this is best learned on the gig.

I’ve noticed a lot of straight-ahead players kind of default to a polka-esque two feel when they play rhythm which is interesting. I actually think the flat four is hard to get, especially at faster tempos.

If I’m playing with a bass sax or a tuba I’ll adjust my feel compared to how I play with a string bass player. Otoh that feel will vary if the bass player is playing modern walking with steel strings or slapping with guts. Or even bowing the two-feel. (That’s a thing some do, very old school.)

Otoh I associate the - ahem - Maccaferri Shred scene more with a direct connection to the modern folk tradition of Manouche jazz, which I am personally unconnected to. Which doesn’t really help when people book me for a gig playing ‘Parisian swing’ haha.

I think that stuff is so rigorously defined as a sub genre of guitar playing specifically I do feel the need to indicate somehow that I am not trying to play it. (Part of the reason is how fixed a lot of those guys are about absolutely everything - it’s either wrong or right.)

But that doesn’t stop people from saying I play ‘gypsy jazz’ or ‘like Django’ which is of course very funny if you’ve ever been stuck on a long car journey with me and been subjected to the Rant.

I suppose if you play rhythm guitar and single note jazz solos on an acoustic, the comparison is natural for normies.

At least that’s what I’m telling myself lol.

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[Christian Miller]

A wider issue - I think a lot of jazz musicians (on this side of the pond at least) see ‘swing’ as ‘do what you like, interact and play Ari Hoenig stuff’, and then play much more groove stuff when they play straight. I think swing to them is a sort of rhythmic sand box and distinct from the dance oriented Latin music, funk, hip hop etc.

One thing I’ve learned from playing the older music is how jazz swing relates to other related African Diaspora musics and how it evolved. Not everything is an open ride with free comping. Even on Blue Note records!

(Especially on blue note records.)


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[Hep To The Jive]

Year Jeff I mean that goes back to my first post. I think that’s reasonable. My points are more about historical practice which might be fairly irrelevant. Most guitarists don’t go down the Duved or Munisteri route, including me tbh. And the basic two-step polka groove feel is the basis of so many musics including Klezmer and Russian music as well as country and early jazz.

(Early jazz can be thought of as one specific genre of a bunch of popular musics of that time including ragtime, society marches and popular waltzes that we tend to lump in together these days.)

Otoh it often seems to me people aren’t really that aware of how pre war American jazz actually sounded, especially with respect to the rhythm feels, which were very different to the post war approach. Jonathan has talked about this at length of course - it’s a bit of a bugbear for specialist musicians that are trying to book rhythm sections who don’t just default to post war swing. In guitar world, a lot of us end up playing ‘gypsy jazz’ almost by default, because there’s plenty of work in it.

As a musican as opposed to a jazz history nerd, there’s a lot going on with how rhythm sections function. I think it’s good to think of the guitar as a drum kit. We can play drums in different ways and rhythm guitar too. And honestly - a lot of this is best learned on the gig.

I’ve noticed a lot of straight-ahead players kind of default to a polka-esque two feel when they play rhythm which is interesting. I actually think the flat four is hard to get, especially at faster tempos.

If I’m playing with a bass sax or a tuba I’ll adjust my feel compared to how I play with a string bass player. Otoh that feel will vary if the bass player is playing modern walking with steel strings or slapping with guts. Or even bowing the two-feel. (That’s a thing some do, very old school.)

Otoh I associate the - ahem - Maccaferri Shred scene more with a direct connection to the modern folk tradition of Manouche jazz, which I am personally unconnected to. Which doesn’t really help when people book me for a gig playing ‘Parisian swing’ haha.

I think that stuff is so rigorously defined as a sub genre of guitar playing specifically I do feel the need to indicate somehow that I am not trying to play it. (Part of the reason is how fixed a lot of those guys are about absolutely everything - it’s either wrong or right.)

But that doesn’t stop people from saying I play ‘gypsy jazz’ or ‘like Django’ which is of course very funny if you’ve ever been stuck on a long car journey with me and been subjected to the Rant.

I suppose if you play rhythm guitar and single note jazz solos on an acoustic, the comparison is natural for normies.

At least that’s what I’m telling myself lol.

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Imagine finding a rhythm section like that in China? 'Please play swing on the hi-hat, don't use the ride'- 'whaaat? are you nuts? why wouldn't i use the ride?? F..k you!' -'Because at that time the ride didn't exist, and I'd love the period correct style'. Blank stares.

[Webby]

Using the Hihat instead of the ride is something dancers care a lot about in my experience.