The difference between Gypsy Jazz and American swing guitar rhythm styles?

[mr. beaumont]

Using the Hihat instead of the ride is something dancers care a lot about in my experience.

I get it...the ride becomes this big wash of sound...which can be great in the right context, of course.

[RJVB]

Isn't there a documentary (or written report) of Django's visit to/dealings with US and American players like Eddie Lang?

One practical difference I haven't seen mentioned: manouche swing is typically played on "argentine" strings which have very low-gauge wound strings (to accentuate the percussive effect).
And I recall someone talking on here about using rest strokes for the upbeats.

Another practical difference: you can stand close to typical a manouche ensemble without having to wear hearing protection

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[Christian Miller]

Imagine finding a rhythm section like that in China? 'Please play swing on the hi-hat, don't use the ride'- 'whaaat? are you nuts? why wouldn't i use the ride?? F..k you!' -'Because at that time the ride didn't exist, and I'd love the period correct style'. Blank stares.

Tbf this is the reaction of most drummers worldwide

We just need to give Steve a call, right?

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[Christian Miller]

Although in London there appears to be a competition between drummers to see who can play the most stripped down portable kit imaginable so there’s a slight crossover.

I’m not convinced by the suitcase bass drum, Ngl


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[pamosmusic]

Although in London there appears to be a competition between drummers to see who can play the most stripped down portable kit imaginable so there’s a slight crossover.

I’m not convinced by the suitcase bass drum, Ngl


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I used to play at this converted auto body shop that was a bar and they didn’t want us to bring a drumset so my buddy played with a bass pedal on a cardboard box with a sack of sugar inside.

a friend of mine here specifically tells drummers to bring their whole damn kit even if they swear they won’t use it.

[Christian Miller]

I used to play at this converted auto body shop that was a bar and they didn’t want us to bring a drumset so my buddy played with a bass pedal on a cardboard box with a sack of sugar inside.

a friend of mine here specifically tells drummers to bring their whole damn kit even if they swear they won’t use it.

It has crossed my mind to do the same


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[Bop Head]

The correct term for a hi-hat in pre-war swing would be sock-cymbal.

[Christian Miller]

The correct term for a hi-hat in pre-war swing would be sock-cymbal.

Not quite. Sock cymbal was originally applied to low mounted foot operated cymbals, also called a low hat, low boy or a low sock. (Philly Jo Jones was old enough to have started playing in that era.)

When the cymbals were raised up so drummers could play them with their sticks, the term was ‘hi hat’ to differentiate the new development. However the term ‘Sock cymbal’ is a holdover colloquialism used by many drummers of that era to refer to foot operated cymbals in general. (Although Wikipedia insists it was used to refer to the low hat cymbals specifically, but I think it’s wrong.)

Hi-hat is a perfectly good term and more specific.

Steve will not let the physical position of the low boy be an obstacle. All I can think is - he must have good knees for his age

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[Stringswinger]

One practical difference I haven't seen mentioned: manouche swing is typically played on "argentine" strings which have very low-gauge wound strings (to accentuate the percussive effect).

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I think a large reason for the lighter gauge strings typically used on Selmer style guitars is the 26.25 scale and the light bracing/thin top construction of these guitars. New Orleans based Gypsy jazz guitarist Tony Green uses 12 gauge phosphor bronze strings on his Dupont MD-50 and he gets plenty percussive. "Argentine" is a brand of strings that use the silver plated construction favored by Django.

In the world of the Django Nazis, if Django did it or used it is correct, everything else is wrong.

[Christian Miller]

I think a large reason for the lighter gauge strings typically used on Selmer style guitars is the 26.25 scale and the light bracing/thin top construction of these guitars. New Orleans based Gypsy jazz guitarist Tony Green uses 12 gauge phosphor bronze strings on his Dupont MD-50 and he gets plenty percussive. "Argentine" is a brand of strings that use the silver plated construction favored by Django.

In the world of the Django Nazis, if Django did it or used it is correct, everything else is wrong.

Tbh I think they’d find Django’s playing inauthentic if he sat in with them…


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[mr. beaumont]

Worlds collide:

[rpjazzguitar]

To my, admittedly untrained ear, American swing rhythm guitar has a relaxed feel. Gypsy Jazz rhythm guitar is played more aggressively, for want of a better term. More on top of the beat, or something. Not a knock. In fact, I just came from hearing the Django Festival All Stars, who were terrific.

[Alter]

[RJVB]

To my, admittedly untrained ear, American swing rhythm guitar has a relaxed feel. Gypsy Jazz rhythm guitar is played more aggressively

Well, manouche swing is in a sense very French, and the typical Frenchperson isn't relaxed at all (rather, wound up tightly aka stressed) outside of the stereotypical periods of relaxation.
That's of course a tongue-in-cheek observation, but probably not entirely irrelevant.

That said: the relaxed feel of "American swing rhythm guitar" is a feeling only. When I look at players in a bit more upbeat piece they're really working and at a comparable tempo manouche players do look a bit more relaxed. That could well have something to do with the former playing down strokes only and the latter up and down strokes.

[mr. beaumont]

But it's not really playing up and down strokes...it's just the little "hiccup" some players do...

[Bop Head]

Well, manouche swing is in a sense very French, and the typical Frenchperson isn't relaxed at all (rather, wound up tightly aka stressed) outside of the stereotypical periods of relaxation.
That's of course a tongue-in-cheek observation, but probably not entirely irrelevant.

That said: the relaxed feel of "American swing rhythm guitar" is a feeling only. When I look at players in a bit more upbeat piece they're really working and at a comparable tempo manouche players do look a bit more relaxed. That could well have something to do with the former playing down strokes only and the latter up and down strokes.

I think any French Sinto (a.k.a. "manouche") would insist not to be considered "a typical Frenchperson".

EDIT: Of course the same applies for a French Sintiza as well.

[RLetson]

I was able to hear a lot GJ rhythm backing when I was still going to festivals and workshops--especially the Djangofest Northwest events starting 20 years ago, which showcased a pretty decent selection of North American and European players. I was able to hear and watch Nousche Rosenberg, Kevin Ryan, Shelley Park, the Ferré brothers, Tchavolo Schmitt, Michael Dunn, Gonzalo Bergara, Stringswinger (hey, Marc), Paul Mehling, Pearl Django, John Jorgenson, and bands I'd have to dig through my archived recordings to remember.

My takeaway was that, as valuable as were the various descriptions and parsings that were emerging at the time via workshops and instruction books, there was no single "gypsy" rhythm technique, though there was certainly the kind of center-and-periphery situation I'd noticed in other musics with a strong oral-tradition history. And even there, it was clear that French, Dutch, and German gypsy players had their own sounds, and that other musical influences (notably straight-ahead jazz and American swing) had entered the tradition-stream at various points.

So there was no single "correct" way of backing a soloist--though I could see that the orthodoxy of two rhythm guitarists (and no drummer) supporting a lead player was strong, especially in bands consisting of family members. (I'd seen similar traditions in Hawaiian music.) On the other hand, the Ferré brothers (sons of Matelo, bandmate of Django) effortlessly moved across intragenre borders. But then, they're conservatory-trained. And when non-gypsies entered the mix, it was Katy-bar-the-door.

[RJVB]

But it's not really playing up and down strokes...it's just the little "hiccup" some players do...

I've been watching 3 of them for a number of sets 2 days ago, and it looked like they used up and down strokes most of the time. The very term la pompe suggests it in fact (though one could argue the opposite).

I think any French Sinto (a.k.a. "manouche") would insist not to be considered "a typical Frenchperson".

The usual term for manouche here is the more generic "Rom" (from Romani) and my guess would be that integrated representatives of French nationality will in fact insist on being considered a normal French person.
And just to be clear: my remark is based on 25y of independent observation and personal experience and in no way to be interpreted as based in anything other than (work/study)cultural/societal reasons. (The personal experience here is that it's too easy to become wound-up "like a typical Frenchperson" even if you're not French, just by living here long enough.)

[Stringswinger]

I was able to hear a lot GJ rhythm backing when I was still going to festivals and workshops--especially the Djangofest Northwest events starting 20 years ago, which showcased a pretty decent selection of North American and European players. I was able to hear and watch Nousche Rosenberg, Kevin Ryan, Shelley Park, the Ferré brothers, Tchavolo Schmitt, Michael Dunn, Gonzalo Bergara, Stringswinger (hey, Marc), Paul Mehling, Pearl Django, John Jorgenson, and bands I'd have to dig through my archived recordings to remember.

My takeaway was that, as valuable as were the various descriptions and parsings that were emerging at the time via workshops and instruction books, there was no single "gypsy" rhythm technique, though there was certainly the kind of center-and-periphery situation I'd noticed in other musics with a strong oral-tradition history. And even there, it was clear that French, Dutch, and German gypsy players had their own sounds, and that other musical influences (notably straight-ahead jazz and American swing) had entered the tradition-stream at various points.

So there was no single "correct" way of backing a soloist--though I could see that the orthodoxy of two rhythm guitarists (and no drummer) supporting a lead player was strong, especially in bands consisting of family members. (I'd seen similar traditions in Hawaiian music.) On the other hand, the Ferré brothers (sons of Matelo, bandmate of Django) effortlessly moved across intragenre borders. But then, they're conservatory-trained. And when non-gypsies entered the mix, it was Katy-bar-the-door.

I think you meant Kevin Nolan, not Kevin Ryan.

You are 100 percent correct that there is no single "correct" way to do either a percussive Gypsy jazz rhythm guitar style or the more "integrated" (for want of a better word) American/Swing rhythm guitar style. I can tell you from experience that having played with many top players who do rhythm guitar (Howard Alden, Angeleo DeBarre, Stephane Wrembel, Paul Mehling, Robin Nolan, Kevin Nolan, Greg Ruby, Ellios Ferre, Ninine Garcia, John Jorgensen, Andreas Oberg and others) that everyone's style is a bit different. When playing with top players, sometimes I need to move my accents and make adjustments to lock with them, sometimes they quickly lock to me and most often we meet in the middle.

Truly good rhythm players are flexible in their technique. The problem with mediocre players is you have to play around them. What they do is all they can do.

[rpjazzguitar]

Last night I heard the Django Festival All Stars, led by Samson Schmitt.

The other guitar player mostly stayed off the high E string. The voicings were not exotic. Tone was not trebly. It was clearly a background or foundational kind of part. Great time, good sound.

Samson played with more highs in his "EQ" (bigger soundhole, helps with that afaik). More high E string, more drama in the sound. Voicings were mostly standard stuff, played great, but with some grips that were less familiar.

I have the vague impression that, when they comped behind the violinist (Pierre Blanchard is his name, I think, and he was absolutely awesome) they weren't doing the exact same thing. I can't describe the difference.

Most of the show was original material. All really good tunes. They all had a combination of foundational swing and overlaid virtuosity. For the encore they played Tea For Two.

The fifth member was a button accordionist and an absolute monster on that instrument. He even played button melodica and sounded terrific.

[RLetson]

I think you meant Kevin Nolan, not Kevin Ryan.

Yup. I took a rhythm workshop with Kevin Nolan 15 years ago. No idea how he morphed into a Ryan. I think too much attention to the political news has created some short circuits in the memory files.

[Roberoo]

To my, admittedly untrained ear, American swing rhythm guitar has a relaxed feel. Gypsy Jazz rhythm guitar is played more aggressively, for want of a better term. More on top of the beat, or something. Not a knock. In fact, I just came from hearing the Django Festival All Stars, who were terrific.

The rhythm feel in gypsy jazz has some variety too, regionally and historically. Today, in general, there is less variation and it is more aggressive than in Django’s period. Chords tend to be shorter and more chopped - march like. In Django’s period I think there was more bounce. A friend of mine argues the current short chopped sounds comes from playing with metronomes and a normalization of quantitized time keeping. Who knows? These aren’t value judgements just observations. Interpretations of, say, Bach varied widely and approaches to Bach accepted now would be anathema 100 years ago let alone 300 years ago.

I do take issue with folks that argue there is only one way to play “authentic” gypsy jazz. Those claims are unsustainable when faced with the great variety of approaches over time.

[Stringswinger]

Last night I heard the Django Festival All Stars, led by Samson Schmitt.

The other guitar player mostly stayed off the high E string. The voicings were not exotic. Tone was not trebly. It was clearly a background or foundational kind of part. Great time, good sound.

Samson played with more highs in his "EQ" (bigger soundhole, helps with that afaik). More high E string, more drama in the sound. Voicings were mostly standard stuff, played great, but with some grips that were less familiar.

I have the vague impression that, when they comped behind the violinist (Pierre Blanchard is his name, I think, and he was absolutely awesome) they weren't doing the exact same thing. I can't describe the difference.

Most of the show was original material. All really good tunes. They all had a combination of foundational swing and overlaid virtuosity. For the encore they played Tea For Two.

The fifth member was a button accordionist and an absolute monster on that instrument. He even played button melodica and sounded terrific.

Some years back, I was playing at Djangofest NW up in Langley Washington and I happened to be in the green room when Samson Schmidt and Serge Camps walked in. They looked like they were about to warm up with a jam (Djam?) and I asked if I could play rhythm for them. Samson told me that they were going to play mostly bop tunes rather than Django tunes, to which I replied that I know lots of tunes in both genres. We went at it for almost three hours! I only played rhythm even those I was invited to take a solo, I thought being a dedicated rhythm player was prudent.

I think they were very pleased that I had solid time/rhythm chops and knew almost all the tunes they wanted to play. A fun afternoon was had by all.

[olejason]

I do take issue with folks that argue there is only one way to play “authentic” gypsy jazz. Those claims are unsustainable when faced with the great variety of approaches over time.

Thankfully I've only ever heard that nonsense from total noobies still getting their bearings or people only tangentially familiar with the genre. Certainly, players within Gypsy Jazz recognize there is more than one way to interpret the repertoire. Every genre has idioms and standards that are followed but I don't think GJ has as rigid of a traditional ethos, at least internally among players, as it is oft accused of online.

[Bop Head]

Latcho ...