Maj7 Drop 2 Third Finger Barre

[ecline]

I see everyone play this voicing with the third finger barred across the top three strings. When I try to do this, it forces my wrist to have to move back several inches and results in an extremely terrible hand position. Whenever I'm tempted to play this voicing I end up just dropping the 5th or playing it with one finger per string, which also is difficult because it forces a pretty big stretch between the 1st and 2nd fingers as well as a tilt of the hand. My basic question is, do others also find this voicing to be physically terrible? If you've experienced that and learned a way to make it comfortable, how did you do it?

The voicing in question:

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I see everyone play this voicing with the third finger barred across the top three strings. When I try to do this, it forces my wrist to have to move back several inches and results in an extremely terrible hand position. Whenever I'm tempted to play this voicing I end up just dropping the 5th or playing it with one finger per string, which also is difficult because it forces a pretty big stretch between the 1st and 2nd fingers as well as a tilt of the hand. My basic question is, do others also find this voicing to be physically terrible? If you've experienced that and learned a way to make it comfortable, how did you do it?

The voicing in question:

Welcome! Maybe the sleep is still in my eyes, but I don’t see a major 7 drop 2 in those notes. F C E A is an inversion of F major 7 with the A moved up an octave. I finger it with my index finger on the F and my little finger across the top three.

[pamosmusic]

Welcome! Maybe the sleep is still in my eyes, but I don’t see a major 7 drop 2 in those notes. F C E A is an inversion of F major 7 with the A moved up an octave. I finger it with my index finger on the F and my little finger across the top three.

(that is the definition of drop 2, at least another way about it, anyway. Taking the second note from the top and dropping it to the bottom looks the same as taking the second note from the bottom and popping it to the top. The terminology makes a lot of sense for arranging but always makes my head spin a little on guitar.)

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

(that is the definition of drop 2, at least another way about it, anyway. Taking the second note from the top and dropping it to the bottom looks the same as taking the second note from the bottom and popping it to the top. The terminology makes a lot of sense for arranging but always makes my head spin a little on guitar.)

Right. It’d be a “raise 3” if there were such a thing. But I’ve never seen that called anything other than an inversion. The drop 2 of an F maj7 is A F C E.

An inverted inversion - we live and learn

[pamosmusic]

Right. It’d be a “raise 3” if there were such a thing. But I’ve never seen that called anything other than an inversion. The drop 2 of an F maj7 is A F C E.

An inverted inversion - we live and learn

Inversion just refers to the bass note. So an inversion would need to have something other than F in the bass. But you can pull drop voicings from all the inversions …

F A C E … becomes … C F A E
A C E F … E A C F
C E F A … F C E A
E F A C … A E F C

Most of those you’ll recognize if you play them on the top four strings. They’re pretty miserable on the middle or bottom though.

[pcjazz]

Inversion just refers to the bass note. So an inversion would need to have something other than F in the bass. But you can pull drop voicings from all the inversions …

F A C E … becomes … C F A E
A C E F … E A C F
C E F A … F C E A
E F A C … A E F C

Most of those you’ll recognize if you play them on the top four strings. They’re pretty miserable on the middle or bottom though.

I would consider them pretty standard voicings on all adjacent string sets. I see them as major sixth chords with a borrowed major seventh. Why miserable?

[pamosmusic]

I would consider them pretty standard voicings on all adjacent string sets. I see them as major sixth chords with a borrowed major seventh. Why miserable?

The stretches can be pretty rough in place. Maj6-Min7 are all pretty easy across all string sets. The first inversion maj7 is a real bear on the lower two string sets. Second inversion can be tough in the middle. First inversion half diminished on the lower set is pretty rough.

I had some carpal tunnel issues in college and since then I’ve learned that it is those voicings full stop that aggravate it. Every time.

[pcjazz]

The stretches can be pretty rough in place. Maj6-Min7 are all pretty easy across all string sets. The first inversion maj7 is a real bear on the lower two string sets. Second inversion can be tough in the middle. First inversion half diminished on the lower set is pretty rough.

I had some carpal tunnel issues in college and since then I’ve learned that it is those voicings full stop that aggravate it. Every time.

I was referring to the drop versions you listed. They don’t have big stretches. The close inversions you derived them from are real bears though.

[pamosmusic]

I was referring to the drop versions you listed. They don’t have big stretches. The close inversions you derived them from are real bears though.

The derived one from A sure does on the lower two string sets. A minor second between the tenor and alto, and then a fifth between the alto and soprano

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Inversion just refers to the bass note. So an inversion would need to have something other than F in the bass. But you can pull drop voicings from all the inversions …

F A C E … becomes … C F A E
A C E F … E A C F
C E F A … F C E A
E F A C … A E F C

Most of those you’ll recognize if you play them on the top four strings. They’re pretty miserable on the middle or bottom though.

I was taught that a chord inversion is when you play a chord with any note other than the root note on the bottom, and this is the first I’ve been told that the term applies only to the lowest note. I was also taught the concept of inside inversion, which is moving an extension into the octave of the root chord. So (C) D E G Bb is an inside inversion of C9, and (C) E F# G Bb is an inside inversion of a C11. The root is optional, depending on musical context. A lot of Bill Evans’ close harmonies are inside inversions.

I studied theory in the late 1950s, so maybe what I was taught is no longer correct.

[pcjazz]

The derived one from A sure does on the lower two string sets. A minor second between the tenor and alto, and then a fifth between the alto and soprano

A E F C

5 7 3 5 X X

X 12 14 10 13 X

But then I play mostly shorter-scale or fanned fret guitars. Probably couldn’t reach the first one on a 25 incher.

[ecline]

It seems I've opened a can of worms about what different voicings should be called and which ones are hard to play.

So... anybody got any tips on how to play that one?


FWIW, I come from piano where nobody talks about drop2, 3, or 4. Voicings are just closed, open, or cluster. But there are so few physical limitations to what's playable on the piano that a taxonomy of voicings beyond those terms would be nearly impossible to come up with.

[pamosmusic]

I was taught that a chord inversion is when you play a chord with any note other than the root note on the bottom, and this is the first I’ve been told that the term applies only to the lowest note.

Apologies … I’m not sure what the distinction here is?

An inversion applies only to the low note. Youre saying an inversion applies to the note on the “bottom.” So I’m not sure how what you’re saying here is any different.

Inside inversion is a bit of a niche term. If that’s what you meant by that F C E A chord being an inversion, then i suppose that’s true. In the standard terminology, inversion refers to which note is the low note, in which case F is the low note and it’s a root position chord.

[pcjazz]

It seems I've opened a can of worms about what different voicings should be called and which ones are hard to play.

So... anybody got any tips on how to play that ?.

First finger on the fourth string 3d fret, third (or even fourth) finger partial barre across the top three strings, 5th fret. Thumb under the first finger, no wrist rotation required.

If you are still finding this difficult, try laying your third or fourth finger over the top three strings 5th fret first before reaching over with your first finger to stop the fourth string at the 3rd fret. Keet the thumb underneath throughout.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Inversion just refers to the bass note. So an inversion would need to have something other than F in the bass.

Again, I may be missing something obvious in your reasoning, but I think you’re contradicting yourself. The OP asks about the chord F C E A. The root is the bottom note. The A is raised an octave. The root is the bass note. I see that you used C E F A to F C E A as an example of a drop chord from an inversion, but this seems quite a semantic stretch when you end up with the root back on the bottom and the “dropped” note effectively raised an octave.

Moving 2 notes in separate steps is a complicated way of ending up with the same chord. The A is inverted an octave upward. So it’s either a simple inversion or a complex drop. You first invert it and then uninvert it. As I see it, once inverted is always inverted regardless of what else you do next.

All of your examples of drop voicings bring the dropped note below the lowest note in the original inverted chord. Are you saying that chords with the “dropped” note raised an octave are also drop voicings but are not inversions because the lowest note is still the root?

Following your logic, F C E A is neither an inversion nor a drop chord. But you say in your first response to this thread that it’s “the definition of drop 2”.

[mr. beaumont]

This one has never bothered me, but there is a particular m7 drop 2 voicing a lot of folks do with a middle finger "double barre" which I find very uncomfortable.

Which is to say, everyone's hands are different.

My usual advice for something that feels too "stretchy" is to attempt it higher up the neck first, then move it down gradually.

[pamosmusic]

Again, I may be missing something obvious in your reasoning, but I think you’re contradicting yourself. The OP asks about the chord F C E A. The root is the bottom note, but you didn’t contradict his calling it a drop chord. The A is raised an octave. The root is the bass note.

All of your examples of drop voicings bring the dropped note below the lowest note in the original chord. Are you saying that chords with the “dropped” note raised an octave are also drop voicings but are not inversions because the lowest note is still the root?

Following your logic, F C E A is neither an inversion nor a drop chord. But you say in your first response to this thread that it’s “the definition of drop 2”.

You’re conflating some terms here.

An inversion refers to the lowest note of the chord, regardless of voicing. A drop chord refers to the voicing itself and can be in any inversion.

An F major 7 with F in the bass is root position, regardless of the order of the other notes. An F major 7 with A in the bass is first inversion, regardless of the other notes.

Drop 2, Drop 3, and terms like that refer to the order of the notes themselves and can be in any inversion. A drop 2 voicing is when you take the close voicing and drop the second note from the top down an octave, which makes it the low note.

[pamosmusic]

Here’s the ole JGO article on the topic:

Drop 2 Chords - Chord Chart, Theory & Exercises

[Mick-7]

I see everyone play this voicing with the third finger barred across the top three strings. When I try to do this, it forces my wrist to have to move back several inches and results in an extremely terrible hand position. Whenever I'm tempted to play this voicing I end up just dropping the 5th or playing it with one finger per string, which also is difficult because it forces a pretty big stretch between the 1st and 2nd fingers as well as a tilt of the hand. My basic question is, do others also find this voicing to be physically terrible? If you've experienced that and learned a way to make it comfortable, how did you do it?

The voicing in question:

Ask a seemingly simple question here and this is what happens....

I don't see any ergonomic problem (if that's the word) with barring the top three notes of that chord with your 3rd finger and don't know of a better alternative fingering. It's a common type of voicing and should not create the sort of tension you described, so I'm thinking it's your playing technique that is the problem - the way you hold your hand/wrist, etc.

P.S. - You should see no significant change in your hand/wrist position between the chord you mentioned and it's related M6 voicing, this one: F6: x-x-3-5-3-5

[garybaldy]

I think this thread was meant to be about the physically issue of fretting the chord not the theory about the chord inversion. Does it matter that much?!
ps I use 1st and 3rd fingers.

[pamosmusic]

Does it matter that much? In a practical sense, and for this purpose, I suppose not. But in terms of communicating with other musicians? Sure. These are two fairly well-understood terms with fairly clear meanings. The OP was using them correctly.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don't see any ergonomic problem (if that's the word) with barring the top three notes of that chord with your 3rd finger and don't know of a better alternative fingering. It's a common type of voicing and should not create the sort of tension you described, so I'm thinking it's your playing technique that is the problem - the way you hold your hand/wrist, etc.

I agree. The natural position and fingering for me has always been to barre the 3rd fret (or whichever fret hits the desired root) with my index finger and the 5th (or fret + 2) with my little finger. If I'm hitting that chord while comping for myself (playing a line solo or without a chording instrument behind me), I may adjust that to barre with 3rd and 5th (or even the 4th and 5th fingers if I'm high over the body where fret spacing is tight) if the line I'm playing wants my index and 3rd fingers elsewhere.

Flexibility in fingering is also helpful in chorded solos to facilitate moving from the chord before into the chord after.

[ecline]

Ask a seemingly simple question here and this is what happens....

I don't see any ergonomic problem (if that's the word) with barring the top three notes of that chord with your 3rd finger and don't know of a better alternative fingering. It's a common type of voicing and should not create the sort of tension you described, so I'm thinking it's your playing technique that is the problem - the way you hold your hand/wrist, etc.

P.S. - You should see no significant change in your hand/wrist position between the chord you mentioned and it's related M6 voicing, this one: F6: x-x-3-5-3-5

I'm certainly hoping that it's my technique rather than just my hand anatomy making it more difficult. Perhaps to illustrate a little more (also learning that it's so hard to get the right angles to photograph a technical issue on the guitar...) here's a shot of me playing an F6 which is quite comfortable, vs the Fmaj7 with the barre which feels utterly awful. Two things that jump out at me seeing the pictures side by side is that my elbow comes way out to play the Fmaj7 and also you'll see that my pinky is clear behind the neck! It sort of ends up there because the amount of pressure/tension I feel I need to exert to get the 3rd finger into enough hyperextension to lay flat on the strings and produce a clear sound.

[pamosmusic]

Ask a seemingly simple question here and this is what happens....

I don't see any ergonomic problem (if that's the word) with barring the top three notes of that chord with your 3rd finger and don't know of a better alternative fingering. It's a common type of voicing and should not create the sort of tension you described, so I'm thinking it's your playing technique that is the problem - the way you hold your hand/wrist, etc.

P.S. - You should see no significant change in your hand/wrist position between the chord you mentioned and it's related M6 voicing, this one: F6: x-x-3-5-3-5

Two kind of useful notes, I think.

1. elevating the guitar and/or angling the neck so that the headstock approaches nose-eye level can take a lot of bend out of the wrist. If you make a chord that bends your wrist and then start angling the guitar neck upward you can watch the bend leave your wrist.

2. sometimes people are inclined to drop the thumb down to the bottom of the back of the neck to help get some more flexibility, but that often results in the wrist bending a lot too. Keeping the thumb in the middle third of the back of the neck as much as possible can be helpful. Thats usually more of a problem on the lower strings though.

[pamosmusic]

I'm certainly hoping that it's my technique rather than just my hand anatomy making it more difficult. Perhaps to illustrate a little more (also learning that it's so hard to get the right angles to photograph a technical issue on the guitar...) here's a shot of me playing an F6 which is quite comfortable, vs the Fmaj7 with the barre which feels utterly awful. Two things that jump out at me seeing the pictures side by side is that my elbow comes way out to play the Fmaj7 and also you'll see that my pinky is clear behind the neck! It sort of ends up there because the amount of pressure/tension I feel I need to exert to get the 3rd finger into enough hyperextension to lay flat on the strings and produce a clear sound.

Oh I posted before I saw the picture. Neck angle looks good but it does like you’ve dropped your thumb down to give the barre more pressure. Thats probably what’s popping that wrist out that way. Just try to keep your thumb from scooting out at an angle like that.