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I get how it may feel that way: if that's a sequence to be played at speed every technique you're not used to using will feel awkward and thus non-ergonomic. I think we all know the situation where you settle for a given fingering at first because it seems easier/quicker/safer, and then some time later you decide to work on an alternative (because, well, you ought to be able to use that too, right) and find yourself using that one preferentially?
Originally Posted by Bop Head
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07-16-2024 01:30 PM
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I work a lot on alternative fingerings for chords depending on where I am coming from to those chords and where they are going. Some fingerings might not feel intuitive at first sight but make sense in certain contexts. Originally Posted by RJVB
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Indeed. I tried your sequence with "odd barrés" on my archtop, and I can imagine how it could be a faster/safer solution provided action is low and you're not digging in so much you need to hold the strings down tightly to prevent them from buzzing under your fingers. Originally Posted by Bop Head
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I practice mainly on my dreadnaught with rather high action. Originally Posted by RJVB
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nought naughty at all ... but at least it puts your definition of ergonomic into context Originally Posted by Bop Head
Still, the most comfortable (and context-free) LH solution I found for the 3-5-5-5 chord from the OP is 8-10-9-10, with the 8-5-5-5 solution I use a close second (evidently using a partial barré with the index) on the 24.8" scale length of my archtop.
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My experts are better than your experts. Originally Posted by RJVB
I attended workshops with Joe Pass, Howard Roberts, and Barney Kessel, they all said this chord barring technique was fine (with my arm/wrist perpendicular to the neck as I said, not bent like yours in the pic). I've never had any playing induced problems with my left hand or wrist. If a technique became stressful or painful, I'd stop doing it.
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Ooof you had a different classical teacher than I did. Originally Posted by RJVB
Pressure is not good, but a bent left wrist is carpal tunnel central.
I had pretty significant carpal tunnel and tendinitis issues when I was studying classical and I saw a PT about it. The quickest way to carpal tunnel is to bend your wrist (either direction, extension or flexion) and then move the digits. Ask yourself how many office folks you know with ergonomic keyboards and wrist braces because they got carpal tunnel from typing, then ask yourself how many of them got it because they were typing too hard.
Of course if you’re pressing too hard, then you’ll get problems too. But poor wrist position will get you even if you have a light touch. Most of the classical body position is there to keep your lower back in good shape and your wrists straight.
Disclaimer: classical technique is not the only way to get a healthy playing position, and you can also follow the letter of most of those classical positioning instructions and still have a poor playing position.
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Where did I mention experts? Originally Posted by Mick-7
My experts are better than your experts.
Oh, I see, so all the time this was not about a chord that occurs occasionally but about a long piece that is some kind of theme and variations based on that chord. In that case I withdraw my suggestion and replace it with "avoid". Originally Posted by pamosmusic
But I think you now also owe us a demonstration of your classical LH position for playing that chord, using a straight wrist
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I mean ... if a piece occurs once in a piece, that means you only play it once? Originally Posted by RJVB
Where did I mention experts?
Oh, I see, so all the time this was not about a chord that occurs occasionally but about a long piece that is some kind of theme and variations based on that chord. In that case I withdraw my suggestion and replace it with "avoid".
But I think you now also owe us a demonstration of your classical LH position for playing that chord, using a straight wrist
Or it means you play it every time you practice/perform the piece. Which is to say, many many times. And the wrist position is a big thing. That footstool and guitar on the left leg is not just for show.
And nope. I'm a heathen jazzer now so I'm barring that bad boi with my third finger.
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Well, that's disappointing but I wasn't really holding my breath. This is about the straightest wrist I've seen when playing this chord; anyone with longer arms or bigger hands will inevitably need to bend it more. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
(from this video @ 1:05)
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ecline, Originally Posted by ecline
The solution is mechanical - geometric. You are laying your third finger straight down on the fingerboard; that is the weakest application of "straight" finger force.
Notice the picture showing your "rolled" first finger (rolled back toward the nut so the finger contact is more on the "thumb side" side of the index finger).
That's the way... sideways force on the fingers works better... do the same thing with the third finger in the other direction. Roll the third finger toward the bridge so that the force is applied more by the "pinky side" of the third finger.
Rock guitarists depend on this mechanical geometry to make it through their barre chord songs, especially the major chord form rooted on the 5th string that is the same shape as the one you questioned. Just roll enough to feel the increase in strength and confidence - about 30-45 degrees of rotation is about right.
Jazz guitarists tend to view chord construction thoughtfully, not just theoretically but mechanically elegantly, favoring the finger tips and minimizing barres (and perhaps hesitate examining a more barre chordy past...?) .
See if rolling the third finger toward the bridge helps.
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Eh. Originally Posted by RJVB
Seems I’m more legit than I thought I was.
For what it’s worth … you obviously have to bend your wrist sometimes to play stuff (that stupid F major section of Arabe comes to mind as a wrist buster for me) … I was just disagreeing with the idea that pressing too hard is considerably worse than a wrist bend. Albeit disagreeing in maybe too strong a terms. Both will get you in time.
But still … Over-using a wrist bend will punish a guy for sure. Most of the time with casual chord playing etc, the wrist bend indicates something that can be fixed with a better position rather than something necessary to form the chord. Though I grant you not all the time.
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I quoted you in my post: "I've tried barring >2 strings with the 3rd and 4th fingers, been warned about hurting myself by several experienced players." Both words are derived from the Latin peritus meaning: skillful, skilled, expert, experienced, practised. Originally Posted by RJVB
Ah, we finally have incontrovertible photographic evidence that Peter is legit, let no one ever question his authority again! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Of course I meant "legit" in the way classical players say that about themselves, implying the rest of us are rabble (which we are). Originally Posted by Mick-7
Ah, we finally have incontrovertible photographic evidence that Peter is legit, let no one ever question his authority again!
But also, yes, please refrain from questioning my authority ever again. k thx
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I never think in terms or dropped 2nd chords or any of that nonsense. To me it is an Fmaj7 or a Dmin9 =th chord. I finger it with my index finger on f and my 3rd finger across the top 3 strings. Call me a fuddy duddy, but all this talk of the drop 2 voicings are a waste of time and energy. The important aspect of this from the physical point of view is I leave my little finger free to do other things playing the chord and where I might go next.
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Yes, that's exactly why eminent jazz fuddy-duddies such as Joe Pass, Barney Kessel and Howard Roberts barre those notes, watch videos of their playing and you'll see them do it. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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