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Originally Posted by dconeill
1 3 5 7 (tonic - third - fifth - seventh)
whereby 7 can also exchanged for a sixth (in other words 7 reads "seventh or sixth").
It is like learning chord changes as chord names opposed to learning them as Roman numerals which the mind associates with certain sequences of sounds and which make it much easier to transpose a tune.
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07-12-2024 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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This is systematic chord inversions and their 24 permutations
This is a Ben Monder approach to chord studies..He absorbed this from Ted Greens Chord Chemistry..which he said was a "bible"
(Ted did study with George Van Epps)
If in integrating this basic knowledge in all keys and the chords within them .. many of the mysteries of harmonic movement on the guitar
will be revealed.
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Ben Monder lists all the permutations but doesn’t call them drops.
I’ve come around to the drop nomenclature. It’s good to practice building chords down from the melody as well as up from the bass and that’s what drops are about. Select a melody/soprano note, choose a chord root and quality that fits and construct different voicings downwards. Which will in this case also be different inversions.
As I understand it it’s the way horns used to organise voicings in section even without a chart.
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Originally Posted by dconeill
This description does a very good job, btw. It makes sense as I read it. I have imagine the notes as on a keyboard. But I still don't have it internalized to the point of where I can say, "oh, that's drop 2 2nd inversion."
That said, I don't think this way. I dare say that I know all of the resulting voicings, but I didn't arrive at them by thinking of a drop. If I had to guess, it's just by understanding the layout of the guitar and finding voicings that work, moving notes to different octaves, etc. It's nice/interesting to know that there is actually a system.
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Originally Posted by dconeill
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Originally Posted by RJVB
As for the ring, I've not noticed it being an issue for anything. Are there things that folks commonly have trouble with when wearing rings? To check my confidence I just took mine off and tried the voicing with one finger per fret, perhaps thinking that without the ring it might be easier to squeeze all the fingers together. No difference.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
This is an exercise of voice leading for chord melody studies
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Originally Posted by ecline
Cheaper and perhaps better alternative to Dynarette cushion?
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Originally Posted by wolflen
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The way I learned was via chord melodies for songs. My teacher showed me the chord melody, diagrammed the chords, circled the root and told me to learn the grip in every key.
Work on a couple of dozen songs that way maybe in multiple keys and you'll have a pretty good chord vocabulary with voice leading. It won't be exhaustive but, at least, everything will work in some song.
Or you could write out the 24 permutations, learn them in multiple places on the neck and different string sets, and figure out the ii Vs. It will be exhaustive and a lot of it may be hard to apply.
I learn better the first way, with the songs. Permutations and combinations rarely produce something that gets into my playing. Not never, but not often.
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Originally Posted by supersoul
I didn't come upon them by drop, either. Originally, I permuted the chord factors like an undergraduate math student. I heard of, and explored, the "drop" processes later as I was trying to understand why the voicings fell like they did on guitar.
As I said, I came upon the "drop-n" processes later, and found that they're much easier to remember, less prone to blunder because they're simple, and are known to (or at least heard of by) many more people than "permutations".
Another observation for guitar is that if the four notes are on a contiguous set of strings (str 6 5 4 3, str 5 4 3 2, str 4 3 2 1), the voicing is likely a drop-2. If the four notes have one intervening unused string just above the bass note (str 6 4 3 2, str 5 3 2 1), the voicing is likely a drop-3. This is an observation and I haven't tried to see if it's generally true - it seems to depend on how many frets of "reach" you allow in your fingerings.
Additionally, str 6 5 3 2 and str 5 4 2 1 are likely drop-2&4, while str 6 5 4 2 and str 5 4 3 1 are likely drop-2&3.
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I have, I think, just a couple of final thoughts on this list of chord pitch orders that I gave above.
1. Once you've determined what the chord fingerings are, the task is to learn to play them. How you got to your set of chord fingerings becomes irrelevant, as long as the set is complete.
2. The only advantage I can see to using a little combinatoric math to tell me the possible pitch orders of a four-note chord (24 permutations), and what the four-strings-at-a-time subsets of six guitar strings are (15 combinations), is that I have assurance that I haven't missed any. A trial-and-error approach is fraught with the possibility that I missed something.
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If you start with songs you'll learn some of the 24 permutations, but not all. OTOH, the ones you learned will all be useful -- which is why they were in the song.
Later on, you can try the ones you missed to see if any of them are useful.
So, that's 24 permutations played on how many string sets? The obvious three, plus grips that skip strings? How many of those? And, then in multiple places on the neck, call that 4 places, maybe 5. And that's for one chord type. 400? 500?
I hope you didn't waste any time reading this post.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
EDIT: sorry, I wasn't notified about your reply to my post. I think you can see from the above why I think a ring would handicap me, but there are other reasons. So much the better if they don't apply to you, taking it off and putting it back on is a hassle (but do keep in mind that you may not notice the difference immediately).
I also hold my archtop in classical position btw. Not sure I could do that with a 17" though.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
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It looks a lot worse than it is; there's very little strain on my hand. Less than when I try something weird like barring with 2 fingers; that would hardly change the bend angle of my wrist but oblige me to pivot my arm down/inwards around my thumb. And that would indeed be asking for trouble.
I just realise that this exact same chord occurs in Takeuchi's arrangement of Manha de Carnaval. He added fingerings, using the one shown above for this chord, but given the context I finger the upper 3 notes with a partial barré (with I) and take the F on the 5th string. I'm just a tad less likely to miss that shift (but I probably ought to try with those upper notes on strings 4-2).Last edited by RJVB; 07-15-2024 at 07:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
My wrist is not bent at all (perhaps very slightly) whereas the bend in your wrist looks quite pronounced (as did the OP's wrist in his photo but less so than yours). It looks like you're not barring the top 3 strings at all in your photo, is that correct? I can't even imagine how that would be more comfortable.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
It looks like you're not barring the top 3 strings at all in your photo, is that correct? I can't even imagine how that would be more comfortable.
I think that barring with the 3rd or 4th finger is practical only with a very horizontal folk position but I can't play like that. But heck, it might even be possible to hit that F with the thumb.
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Originally Posted by ecline
With index and third, not a strain for me. But I've noticed I also lay the index across all the strings too, so both fingers are lying flat. I don't know if that helps.
Bringing the neck up a little helps too usually.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
Originally Posted by RJVB
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Originally Posted by RJVB
If I stand and play with a strap I maybe do not angle the neck up as much as a classical guitarist but much more than "very horizontal".
EDIT: I have medium sized hands (according to the packaging of the latex gloves I have to wear sometimes at work).
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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I just tried to play the following II V I with one finger per string. It is possible but barring is much more ergonomic (IMO).
x-x-3-5-5-5
x-x-3-4-4-6
x-x-2-2-3-3
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
I've tried barring >2 strings with the 3rd and 4th fingers, been warned about hurting myself by several experienced players, and stopped doing it when I noticed they were right. I already have a trigger finger with arthrosis in the 3rd finger of my right hand, I'd like to avoid that in the left where it would be much more of a handicap.
It's very common to see someone suggest trying classical position and LH technique when an acoustic/steel-string player complains about pain or discomfort - I doubt the reason for that is pure arrogance.
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