Death of USA made guitars

[Rickco]

"Is it a Morgan if it's made in China?" Is it a D'Angelico if its made in Asia? Is it a Gibson if its made in Tennessee? Craftsmanship is a culture not a place regardless of which industry you consider. It came to the US from Europe and China, that culture no longer exists in the US and is rapidly deteriorating in Europe. Japan clearly demonstrated that many decades ago. Management used to develop a company culture which made the great companys great, now theres no longer a management culture that considers value or understands labor and pats itself on the back if it makes a profit separate from the considerations that were in place when there was a pride of ownership that came with the responsibility of showing up and doing your best work and creating value in whatever was being produced.
Lecture over...time for my medication

[John A.]

So for at least 50 years it has not been profitable for US companies to make modestly-priced guitars in the US. They have stuck with the more premium guitars, and farm out the cheaper stuck to (mainly) Asia. This will likely not change in our lifetimes.

It really depends on what you mean by "affordable". Performer series Fenders, Tribute series Gibson electrics and G series acoustics, and S2 Series PRS can be found around $1=1.5k (and sometimes well under $1k used), which is cheaper than phones a lot of people give to their 11-year-olds these days. But when there are $500 guitars from their offshore brands that compare very well whether they're worth it or not is difficult to assess.

[Doctor Jeff]

I believe that was to distinguish Gibson’s ES (electric spanish) line from their EH (electric hawaiian) line, which was also a popular range back in those days.

I once got a book on the history of Gibson and was surprised to see photos of all these weird old electric hawaiian things, I didn’t realise they were so popular then.

I was gonna post I wonder why they called their early archtops "Spanish guitars", but I guess their first guitars were typical flattop construction. OTOH their archtops were really influenced more by violin/cello and mandolin techniques. Which were more Italian?

Interesting blog on the history of Gibson with some cool pics of their early guitars:

Gibson History | ChasingGuitars.

[RJVB]

"Is it a Morgan if it's made in China?" Is it a D'Angelico if its made in Asia? Is it a Gibson if its made in Tennessee? Craftsmanship is a culture not a place regardless of which industry you consider.

Exactly. As long as PDOs don't enter the equation.

I was gonna post I wonder why they called their early archtops "Spanish guitars", but I guess their first guitars were typical flattop construction. OTOH their archtops were really influenced more by violin/cello and mandolin techniques. Which were more Italian?

That's what I understood too, though AFAIK the "abuse" of the term Spanish guitar predates the e-guitar, and "Hawaiian" guitars of that period are really resonators. In which string vibration is still converted to sound-producing vibration the same way as in other guitars (and in fact more in a way more similar to how archtops than flattops do it).

And if memory serves me well, the guitar and violin families evolved from the same ancestors, but for the life of me I cannot remember if the evolution into the first violins was better or faster in Italy.

Either way, Gibson may have been at the origin of the archtop guitar as we know it today, but that doesn't mean that similar instruments hadn't been built before. Rob MacKillop has already posted about that.

[Litterick]

If someone choses locally-made over anything else regardless of price, features and/or quality then nationalism/patriotism and some kind of blindness must have something to do with that choice. How could it not?

I chose local products because I prefer my money to benefit my country and I do not want to buy products made by exploited workers. Also, I do not want to support nations that persecute their minorities and deny their citizens human rights.

[Spook410]

I chose local products because I prefer my money to benefit my country and I do not want to buy products made by exploited workers. Also, I do not want to support nations that persecute their minorities and deny their citizens human rights.

OK. So you figure Mr Wu is exploited? Or that he should be held accountable for the bad stuff China does? Or maybe it's like ESG investing. Or carefully reviewing DEI policies of the oil company before pumping gas. Are there faultless countries where guitars are made or is it more like.. a scale of evil? Say, a ranking or a score. Does the goodness of the guitar make their score better or is the specific political bias of the purchaser the primary criteria? And what if the guitar is made locally by an exploited minority? Most craftsmen in the US are underpaid given their skills. And some are/were Italian..

[Litterick]

OK. So you figure Mr Wu is exploited? Or that he should be held accountable for the bad stuff China does? Or maybe it's like ESG investing. Or carefully reviewing DEI policies of the oil company before pumping gas. Are there faultless countries where guitars are made or is it more like.. a scale of evil? Say, a ranking or a score. Does the goodness of the guitar make their score better or is the specific political bias of the purchaser the primary criteria? And what if the guitar is made locally by an exploited minority? Most craftsmen in the US are underpaid given their skills. And some are/were Italian..

I know not Wu. I do not know what you mean by, "the specific political bias of the purchaser". I know nothing of the economic status of American craftsmen, or how some of them being Italian-American could be relevant. I simply try to avoid supporting cruelty.

[RJVB]

I chose local products because I prefer my money to benefit my country

And that isn't some form of nationalism or patriotism?
I don't know how the NZ tax system works but I'd assume that it too knows how to make your money beneficial for them regardless of whether or where you spend it.

and I do not want to buy products made by exploited workers. Also, I do not want to support nations that persecute their minorities and deny their citizens human rights.

Another way to say that is that you refuse to help the people in those countries by spending money there.
Exploited workers can be found in many countries (best avoid diners and such if you visit the US!) but it is IMHO more productive to boycot the companies/employers that do the exploiting rather than the entire country. That way you're actively doing your tiny part to help change things.

[Mick-7]

The minimum wage in the U.S. varies from state to state, it's $16/hr. in California.

See: State Minimum Wage Laws | U.S. Department of Labor

Obviously, there are degrees of exploitation, from underpaid to downright enslaved.

Re: an example of the latter, endorsed by the the Chinese CCP
Inside North Korea’s Forced-Labor Program in China | The New Yorker

Would you want these people making your guitar?

"Exploited workers can be found in many countries (best avoid diners and such if you visit the US!) but it is IMHO more productive to boycott the companies/employers that do the exploiting rather than the entire country."

That doesn't work when a country's political leaders encourage exploitation of workers for their own personal and/or political gain.

[Litterick]

And that isn't some form of nationalism or patriotism?
I don't know how the NZ tax system works but I'd assume that it too knows how to make your money beneficial for them regardless of whether or where you spend it.

It is rational. My money stays here and benefits people here, a remote group of islands in the South Pacific that does not receive welfare payments from anywhere else. It is our mutual interest to look after each other.

Another way to say that is that you refuse to help the people in those countries by spending money there.
Exploited workers can be found in many countries (best avoid diners and such if you visit the US!) but it is IMHO more productive to boycot the companies/employers that do the exploiting rather than the entire country. That way you're actively doing your tiny part to help change things.

Spending money there perpetuates the injustice. If authoritarian regimes were to know they are losing customers in the west, they might think about improving pay and conditions.

[Spook410]

.. I simply try to avoid supporting cruelty.

Which is a good thing that we all should do. Would be nice if we could get a better spotlight on it..

[Doctor Jeff]

It is rational. My money stays here and benefits people here, a remote group of islands in the South Pacific that does not receive welfare payments from anywhere else. It is our mutual interest to look after each other.

Spending money there perpetuates the injustice. If authoritarian regimes were to know they are losing customers in the west, they might think about improving pay and conditions.

After all these years of being against oppression and supporting human rights, I really wonder if that is true. (As one example--a recent analysis of the anti-apartheid boycott of South Africa in the late 80s/90s concluded it did almost nothing. The local businesses were already pushing the government to end apartheid.) Conditions have been improving rather rapidly for Chinese factory workers for instance. Their income is now up to the level of many European countries, and many multiples of the income of workers in Mexico, a place that manufactures a ton of our cars and guitars.

We are so entwined with certain countries with abhorrent regimes, that we can't divest ourselves. It's impossible, would kill our economy and standard of living, and IMO would make things worse for the local population.

ALL the guitar manufacturers including the American ones we idolize so much source components from or have manufacturing in foreign countries, most with governments that are a far cry from democratic. I personally think it's a net plus that we have these business relationships. A person making a guitar in China or Indonesia or Korea is just as much a human with a family to feed as in the US. Boycotts or tariffs on imported products will not bring back large-scale American guitar manufacturing, but will make prices skyrocket.

[pan60]

i wunder how much of the guitar manufactering is moved outside our borders do to envirmental regulations?
i have a freind that regulary informs me this is the cause? if so i woould asume it isnt just regulated to the guitar industry.
i did persanally speak with a funiture manufactor a few years back that was shutting down all manufactering in the USA and he specificaly told me he could no longer afford to manufactor in the USA and was faring it all out to Asia it was a conbination of thing but mostly envirmental and insuracne.
i stated clearly labor was minute in the grand scream of thing things.

[RJVB]

Their income is now up to the level of many European countries, and many multiples of the income of workers in Mexico

Compensated for cost of living or in absolute terms? There are people who seem to consider anything but the latter exploitation.

Of course level of income is just one aspect, e.g: 996 working hour system - Wikipedia

[Litterick]

After all these years of being against oppression and supporting human rights, I really wonder if that is true. (As one example--a recent analysis of the anti-apartheid boycott of South Africa in the late 80s/90s concluded it did almost nothing. The local businesses were already pushing the government to end apartheid.) Conditions have been improving rather rapidly for Chinese factory workers for instance. Their income is now up to the level of many European countries, and many multiples of the income of workers in Mexico, a place that manufactures a ton of our cars and guitars.

Do you have evidence for these claims?

[Spook410]

Do you have evidence for these claims?

Reference podcasts from the Economist. And Google.

Thing is.. who and what are you going to believe? Your government will tell you which countries are bad and which are good based on their political agenda. If you live in China you hear all the bad stuff about the US. If you live in a US ally, you hear all the bad stuff about China.

Nobody wants to support bad and evil stuff.. but it's naive to think you know anything like the truth of it. Certainly not from a macro perspective.

[Doctor Jeff]

Do you have evidence for these claims?

Lac of effect of divestment campaign on South African policy—many South African black leaders were against the divestment campaign (Buthelezi for instance):

Just a moment...

Relative labor rates:

https://reshoringinstitute.org/wp-co...omparisons.pdf

Loss of Chinese wage advantage:

The East-West Wage Gap Not Nearly As Compelling As It Once Was

[Litterick]

Reference podcasts from the Economist. And Google.

Thing is.. who and what are you going to believe? Your government will tell you which countries are bad and which are good based on their political agenda. If you live in China you hear all the bad stuff about the US. If you live in a US ally, you hear all the bad stuff about China.

Nobody wants to support bad and evil stuff.. but it's naive to think you know anything like the truth of it. Certainly not from a macro perspective.

I do not rely on my government for information about other countries. I am not naïve for forming opinions from what I have learned.

[vernon]

The phrase “scale of evil” when talking about different countries rings true for me. No simple binaries here…

In what nation are there no persecuted minorities?

A good guitar is a good guitar.

[Spook410]

I do not rely on my government for information about other countries. I am not naïve for forming opinions from what I have learned.

Umm.. OK. What news sources do you use that are not heavily influenced or outright controlled by those with political agendas?

Here in the US none of the media outlets are eve, close to free from heavy political bias. Closest IMHO, is Wall Street Journal with a business bias which is slightly less political but they can still fall into right wing politics from time to time. All the others are far left or far right. Many of the most popular, outrageously so.

[Mick-7]

"What news sources do you use that are not heavily influenced or outright controlled by those with political agendas?"

I rely mostly on non-profit listener sponsored news sources, as they are not beholden to reflect the views of the corporate sponsors who pay (don't pay) their bills. But in any case, one should follow the money, find out who is funding a media source.

[Litterick]

Umm.. OK. What news sources do you use that are not heavily influenced or outright controlled by those with political agendas?

Here in the US none of the media outlets are eve, close to free from heavy political bias. Closest IMHO, is Wall Street Journal with a business bias which is slightly less political but they can still fall into right wing politics from time to time. All the others are far left or far right. Many of the most popular, outrageously so.

I do not believe most news sources are heavily influenced or controlled by those with political agendas.

[RJVB]

True - often it's the other way round.

Even at the lowest level of the press agency news tickers that feed tidbits to journalists working from their cosy offices you'll find biases in the form of omitting certain things, giving extra attention to other things.

You'd think that journalists would be impartial, neutral and unbiased, but how can they be...

[Spook410]

I do not believe most news sources are heavily influenced or controlled by those with political agendas.

That is a rather remarkable view. I'm sure FoxNews, MSNBC, and NPR will be glad to hear it. I hope you will keep an open mind in the future when you consider who owns the media outlets and how that applies to the content they present.

[Alter]

Meanwhile, here's Fenders newest Indonesian offering starting at €1.349,00

Tom DeLonge Starcaster(R) | Electric Guitars