Anyone handled the new Epis?

[John A.]

With sincere apologies to our forumite friends who, rightfully, find this boring and annoying.

There are lots of cooperatives. Particularly in the US where there are coop utilities, grocery stores, and credit unions. However, there has never been and will never be a country sized cooperative system including a broad swath of the economic landscape. The only large scale experiment I know of was Stalin's Russia where he took over all the family farms and made them into giant cooperatives. Of course, millions died of starvation because it was a stupid infeasible idea. But it was on a very large scale. So cooperatives are a thing. Cooperativism isn't. And if it was, it would produce crap guitars.

"Cooperatives" within an overall command economy ruled by a despot who purged all the experts in pretty much every domain of knowledge, and who deliberately used collectivization of agriculture as a tool of genocide, so not exactly a test of whether "cooperativism" ever existed or worked on a national scale. Not trying to defend coopertivism or say that it could work at a national scale (I suspect there probably is some scaling limit), but any time one talks about some political, philosophical, or economic idea failing when implemented by a murderous insane totalitarian, I think that's looking at the wrong parameter.

Marx himself (in Capital, though not in earlier more explicitly activist writing) thought regulated markets would be the main mechanism of the economy under his vision of socialism. Lenin took steps in that direction under NEP, which Stalin un-did once he consolidated power.

[Doctor Jeff]

So what do you guys think of the new Epiphones eh?

Eh nothing to get too excited about, but nice to see some archtops still being made, even if they say Epiphone on the headstock.

My bias has always been American > Japanese > Korean > Indonesian > Chinese, but let's face it the Chinese have caught up in quality at least to Korea. Same thing happened with power tools and any number of consumer electronics, and is well on the way with cars. (I just got a Volvo S60 PHEV--absolutely love the car. Made in South Carolina, but the research going into their EVs and PHEVs due to Chinese ownership is eye-opening.)

I got my first Japanese guitar recently (Gretsch) which is the highest quality. I have had 2 Epis--Korean and Indonesian, both very good. Korean Peerless--very good. I just got my first Chinese guitar (well except for a cheap Harmony flattop I gave to my son)--the Cordoba Stage--and I am VERY impressed with the quality.

Gibson has done what it has had to do to survive. It is nice that they are still making quality guitars at all price points, even if some are made overseas and sold under the Epiphone name. One hopes they will make quality archtops again in America, but I think the chance of me buying a new Gibson at this point is remote. Glad I've got the vintage 175 and 135 in my stable.

[Spook410]

..but any time one talks about some political, philosophical, or economic idea failing when implemented by a murderous insane totalitarian, I think that's looking at the wrong parameter.

Yea. That's true. It's hard to separate out anything Stalin did. Or Mao Tse Tung. Or Pol Pot. The insanity of what people will do in the name of politics and religion once their grasp on power becomes more or less absolute.

And fine.. time to give in as others struggle to steer us back to guitars..

[DawgBone]

Eh nothing to get too excited about, but nice to see some archtops still being made, even if they say Epiphone on the headstock.

My bias has always been American > Japanese > Korean > Indonesian > Chinese, but let's face it the Chinese have caught up in quality at least to Korea.

In a blind test of a Gibson 355 with custom buckers vs the new Epiphone model with the same pickups nobody here or anywhere else would be able to reliably tell the difference over the course of say five or ten separate clips, especially if we are talking OD tones. It's all shopping with the eyes, hype, and bullshit justifications. Do I think the Gibson is nicer? Of course, it's a $5,000 guitar, it better be. Do I think it will sound noticeably better? No, it won't. It's real advantage is in resale value....

People are so hung up on that branding, it's a powerful psychological ploy which is why "iT's NoT a ReAl GiBsuN" has to be spun over and over, manipulating people's mind for them to maintain sales in a market flooded with cheaper alternatives. You see the greats playing Gibson and associate your own greatness with owning a Gibson so you must have that or you cannot be on that level when the reality is if you worked your chops more than your wallet a whole bunch of instruments would take you where you want to be. I guess that's why I'm excited about these.

[Bach5G]

There’s a used Broadway at the LMS. Plays and sounds great. A little poly-heavy but otherwise a nice guitar. I was tempted but I’ve got too many guitars.

[blackcat]

I try to avoid buying stuff made in China when I can.

That must be really difficult!

[Jimmy Mack]

That must be really difficult!

I have a wonderful Chinese Epiphone 335, and 339, and Casino RI 61. Believe me when I say, I would not own (entertain) these guitars if they were not superb.

I have had many guitars, and auditioned many many more. Gibsons and Fenders mostly.

I compare them to a Gibson L5 CES that I own. (I have auditioned those too).

Result: the L5 stays and so do the Chinese Epiphones

[ruger9]

I have a wonderful Chinese Epiphone 335, and 339, and Casino RI 61. Believe me when I say, I would not own (entertain) these guitars if they were not superb.

I have had many guitars, and auditioned many many more. Gibsons and Fenders mostly.

I compare them to a Gibson L5 CES that I own. (I have auditioned those too).

Result: the L5 stays and so do the Chinese Epiphones

Listening with your ears (and hands) instead of your eyes- bravo!!

[m_d]

I'm just back from Japan and we flew part of our journey with a Chinese airline. I was impressed with how nice and professional the Chinese crew were. I still wouldn't live in China (though maybe for a time if I were younger) but I believe it's safe to say that country of today has little to do with Mao's China. The West should be under no illusions though - we're not going to boss them around and China is always going to be China. As to Japan, the country simply wowed me. I haven't visited a more impressive country. They've expertly kept just the right of protectionism so as to never lose their souls - and their shirts. They're one smart people. I had no plans to buy a guitar but managed a few quick store visits (not the Walkin' store in Tokyo unfortunately), especially to see more Japanese guitars from up close. Fender Japan, Momose, Bacchus, Ibanez, Yamaha and others do a very impressive job for reasonable prices.

[supersoul]

The whole Epiphone ES body line is pretty nice right now. The Emily Wolfe Sheratons, Marty Schwartz 335, the regular sheratons, 150th anniversary sheratons, sheratons with frequensator tailpieces, etc and now these. A real smorgasbord.

Here's the older factory tour I mentioned.

The presses are about 5:30

I really enjoyed that video. Not sure what I was expecting, but so much of the process is still handmade, hand checked, hand adjusted. I sometimes dream of having a Casino, although I don't think I really need one.

[DawgBone]

I really enjoyed that video. Not sure what I was expecting, but so much of the process is still handmade, hand checked, hand adjusted. I sometimes dream of having a Casino, although I don't think I really need one.

If you buy a Casino make sure you either try before you buy or buy from a place with a good return policy. Some years ago there were two natural finished Casinos, identical, at a Sam Ash nearby my home at the time. They were both nicely done with decent fit and finish but while one was amazingly resonant (should've bought it) the other was more or less a dud. If it seems dull or very thin/twangy, you got a dud. I think the full hollow body is much more temperamental and sensitive to the particular piece of wood than the semis in terms of the final product.

[supersoul]

If you buy a Casino make sure you either try before you buy or buy from a place with a good return policy. Some years ago there were two natural finished Casinos, identical, at a Sam Ash nearby my home at the time. They were both nicely done with decent fit and finish but while one was amazingly resonant (should've bought it) the other was more or less a dud. If it seems dull or very thin/twangy, you got a dud. I think the full hollow body is much more temperamental and sensitive to the particular piece of wood than the semis in terms of the final product.

A long time ago I had an Epiphone full hollowbody (can’t remember the model but 175ish) and I ended up selling it because i could never bond with it.
So I’m hesitant towards Epiphone. But a thinline hollowbody is something I might be interested in eventually. If something crossed my path I would consider it. It would have to sound unique to my other couple of guitars.
Although honestly I would choose an Epiphone over a Gibson any day. That “play authentic” campaign really annoyed me!

[DawgBone]

A long time ago I had an Epiphone full hollowbody (can’t remember the model but 175ish) and I ended up selling it because i could never bond with it.
So I’m hesitant towards Epiphone. But a thinline hollowbody is something I might be interested in eventually. If something crossed my path I would consider it. It would have to sound unique to my other couple of guitars.
Although honestly I would choose an Epiphone over a Gibson any day. That “play authentic” campaign really annoyed me!

If money is no object I'm all about those Gibsons. I do love supporting US companies and Gibson makes a fine guitar. But money is an object and Gibsons have gone crazy in price. Ten years ago a used 355 was in the 2500-3000 range. It's double that now and the average gig pay has definitely not maintained that pace so cheaper alternatives are a necessity. All I really care about is tone and playability weighed by price and that means Gibson is really not in the running anymore at my pay rate. If gigs were generating more money, absolutely, but I'd have to have more premium engagements, and lots of them. I'd sure love to write a Gibson off on my taxes over an Epiphone, so there is that, lol.

[Gitterbug]

Some people just can't stand a brand - Epiphone and Jensen, for example, seem to evoke strong feelings. IIRC, a family feud and the untimely death of a key family member led to the demise of Epiphone in just a few years, marked by declining product quality. Under Gibson, it has had its ups and downs, often in parallel depending on product line and factory. I can't say much about the first decades under Gibson, but at least the Emperor Regents and Broadways made in Korea in the 1990s are extremely well made. Overall, the brand is a good example of how difficult it is to restore a reputation after decades of playing a distant second fiddle. On the European car arena, Skoda shares platforms and technology with Audi and VW, consistently beating the latter in comparison tests. Yet, for older people in particular, Czech cars still bring echoes of the Socialist era. How Gibson has managed to retain a more or less pristine image despite continuing turbulence and quality issues is a mystery.

[Stringswinger]

If money is no object I'm all about those Gibsons. I do love supporting US companies and Gibson makes a fine guitar. But money is an object and Gibsons have gone crazy in price. Ten years ago a used 355 was in the 2500-3000 range. It's double that now and the average gig pay has definitely not maintained that pace so cheaper alternatives are a necessity. All I really care about is tone and playability weighed by price and that means Gibson is really not in the running anymore at my pay rate. If gigs were generating more money, absolutely, but I'd have to have more premium engagements, and lots of them. I'd sure love to write a Gibson off on my taxes over an Epiphone, so there is that, lol.

What are you making down there these days, Dawgbone? Here in Commiefornia, I am doing public performance gigs for $150-$200 and the casuals for $300-$400. I make enough music income to write off a used Gibson 335 every year if I was so inclined.

[RJVB]

I'm just back from Japan and we flew part of our journey with a Chinese airline. I was impressed with how nice and professional the Chinese crew were.

If you mean China Airlines, they're Taiwanese

Yet, for older people in particular, Czech cars still bring echoes of the Socialist era. How Gibson has managed to retain a more or less pristine image despite continuing turbulence and quality issues is a mystery.

They were probably still a lot better than they looked (hard to think they could have gotten themselves a reputation as the "poor men's Mercedes just before or after the turn of the century otherwise). Anyway, the comparison with Gibson is a bit off IMHO. I don't think many people (owners or experts alike) know anything about Skoda's legacy from before WW2 (if they even existed), whereas with Gibson it's probably the fact there were problem years that is less commonly known.

[DawgBone]

What are you making down there these days, Dawgbone? Here in Commiefornia, I am doing public performance gigs for $150-$200 and the casuals for $300-$400. I make enough music income to write off a used Gibson 335 every year if I was so inclined.

I'm running a four piece group. I usually take home anywhere from 75-100 plus tips for a weekday gig and 100-250 plus tips for a weekend night and the tips can be very generous on weekends and not so generous on weekdays because weekdays usually mean Austin. More than a few friday-saturdays out of Austin with 500-600 in the bucket at the nights end to split up if we have someone who will pass it around the crowd. Like anything it's highly variable and since I do not work a 9-5 there ain't gonna be no writing off any Gibsons unless I'm saving for a couple two-three years once I consider other guitar necessities like amp maintenance, strings, picks, cables etc.

[Gitterbug]

If you mean China Airlines, they're Taiwanese



They were probably still a lot better than they looked (hard to think they could have gotten themselves a reputation as the "poor men's Mercedes just before or after the turn of the century otherwise). Anyway, the comparison with Gibson is a bit off IMHO. I don't think many people (owners or experts alike) know anything about Skoda's legacy from before WW2 (if they even existed), whereas with Gibson it's probably the fact there were problem years that is less commonly known.

Just for the record, Skoda was founded in 1895 and is one of the world's oldest car makers. The main factory in Mlada Boleslav has employed generations of people from the same families - a national treasure.

[ruger9]

If you mean China Airlines, they're Taiwanese
.

China would say that means they are Chinese.

[ruger9]

I'm running a four piece group. I usually take home anywhere from 75-100 plus tips for a weekday gig and 100-250 plus tips for a weekend night and the tips can be very generous on weekends and not so generous on weekdays because weekdays usually mean Austin. More than a few friday-saturdays out of Austin with 500-600 in the bucket at the nights end to split up if we have someone who will pass it around the crowd. Like anything it's highly variable and since I do not work a 9-5 there ain't gonna be no writing off any Gibsons unless I'm saving for a couple two-three years once I consider other guitar necessities like amp maintenance, strings, picks, cables etc.

Wow, that's good money. My band has been considering starting a tip jar, not many around here do it but they're all over the place in Nashville, and I hear Austin. We're a 5-piece and shoot for 100 each, but it's really only weekend gigs here.

[RJVB]

China would say that means they are Chinese.

Of course they would. And to us they all look the same, right?

Just for the record, Skoda was founded in 1895 and is one of the world's oldest car makers.

See, I could have looked that up but didn't, despite the 2 Skodas in the household (a 2009 and a 2018). To keep with the guitar analogy, going backwards from the beginning of WW2 cars quickly go from medieval to pre-historic instruments

[ruger9]

Of course they would. And to us they all look the same, right?

I wouldn't know, I don't think like that. I don't see nationality or skin color. I mean, of course I can SEE it, but I don't see it. The only time I see nationality is when another country declares war on mine It always pisses me off when I see race questions on forms. With the exception of medical forms (which is a valid piece of knowledge for the medical field to have, some races are predisposed to some things), questions or race should be stricken from everything.

[m_d]

If you mean China Airlines, they're Taiwanese



They were probably still a lot better than they looked (hard to think they could have gotten themselves a reputation as the "poor men's Mercedes just before or after the turn of the century otherwise). Anyway, the comparison with Gibson is a bit off IMHO. I don't think many people (owners or experts alike) know anything about Skoda's legacy from before WW2 (if they even existed), whereas with Gibson it's probably the fact there were problem years that is less commonly known.

Although it was last week I can't remember if China Airlines was indeed the company - will have to check.

Speaking about poor men's Mercedes, in Japan, riding in the old Toyota Crown taxis was a guilty pleasure of mine (not necessarily shared by other family members). They are such a smooth ride.

[RJVB]

I wouldn't know, I don't think like that.

Me neither, but this particular one is in fact a part joke, part truth that comes up from time to time talking with friends of Asian heritage - it works both ways and it's something we can laugh about.

[ruger9]

Me neither, but this particular one is in fact a part joke, part truth that comes up from time to time talking with friends of Asian heritage - it works both ways and it's something we can laugh about.

Americans - all look same.