-
Hey. During my research ive read many places that tube amps sounds better when they are pushed. And not as good at lower volumes. Is there any truth to this, or is it just a myth? Kind of like how F1 cars struggle at low speeds. Im mainly thinking of fenders.
-
09-25-2023 09:07 PM
-
People generally like tube overdrive better than solid state overdrive. But that opinion is based on 1970’s solid state, I think things have improved since then. YMMV
-
Tube amps sound amazing right at the edge of breakup.
They can sound good at lower volumes too, but there is magic in the "push."
-
It seems to me that there is a certain amount of loudness that just sounds better in an awesome kind of way.
There is something about this that is independent of the tubes, as one can also hear it with solid state amps. Maybe it's human physiology, maybe it's the ways the speakers react, or maybe how the sound waves react in the room at louder volumes.
-
This is true. It's probably about the operation of the tubes in the amplifier.
Originally Posted by jazzpazz
-
It depends on what sound you want. Some people like that "just on the edge of break up" sound where there's a little hair on the notes that you pick harder but the notes that are picked softer remain pretty clean. Other people want really clean all the way up the loudness spectrum.
I have multiple amps, not as many as some of us here on the forum. The two that I use most are a Fender tweed Deluxe clone (5E3 circuit) and an Acoustic Image Claris 2r with a Raezer's Edge 12 inch cabinet. The 5E3 is famous for that edge-of-breakup sound (and can go into full meltdown mode; Neil Young's rock sound is based around a completely cranked 5E3 which is on the edge of melting things); I tend to prefer that sound with blues or rock than with jazz, but it's an amp with a nice, big, fat, warm sound. A lot of the Rudy Van Gelder recordings for Blue Note used one of those as that was the house amp, such as Kenny Burrell; you can contrast his tone with Neil's to see the full spectrum of that particular amp design. It is a bassy sounding amp, which can be problematic with archtop guitars as that tends to provoke feedback. Mine has a modification called the "humbucker I and II mods" from Mission Amps, which allows me to use the unused volume knob as a high pass filter. In my case, I plug into the normal channel and use the bright channel volume knob to de-emphasize bass frequencies, reducing the feedback problem with my archtop. I am usually running the volume knob on the guitar at 2–3 at home which is just clean, higher at gigs and then start to get that little bit of breakup. It does offer a kind of dynamic quality, but I do actually prefer it on the cleaner end of the spectrum for jazz.
With the Claris 2r and RE cabinet, it's just clean all the way up. The guitar sounds basically the same at living room level as it does at a gig. It's really a very predictable set up. I've also learned how to set the EQ, gain and volume to give me a warm fat tone, but it is definitely cleaner and a little more "hi-fi" than the 5E3. I happen to like it. It is maybe a little less "dynamic" than the Fender tweed design.
People at gigs seem to like the sound of both amps pretty equally. I'm not sure the audience is really paying all that close attention to those nuances, anyway.
-
The Fender tube amps were designed to be clean (their rated power in watts was determined at 5% distortion, which is very clean for music instrument amps) but they generally do sound best when pushed, but "pushed" can mean a few different things, and there are no guarantees that all the ways to push the amp will sound better for all kinds of music. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
The amp comprises two or three gain stages in the pre-amp, one of which is dedicated to recovering insertion loss in the tone stack, another as a recovery of the reverb signal in the Vibrato channel, and there is a phase inverter before the power tubes.
All those places may be pushed, or just some may be pushed.
- you can push the front end by using input No. 1 of the channel (input No. 2 is -6dB)
- you can remove either V1 or V2 to push the remaining one (the tubes as viewed from the back reading right to left are V1 V2 V3 etc.). V1 is the Normal channel, V2 is the Vibrato channel - just remove the tube from the channel you don't use; it will cause a slight mis-match since they share some common circuits and allow the remaining tube to be pushed more easily
- you can push the amp in general through the tone controls by maximizing the insertion loss recovery by keeping the Middle tone control full up.
- you can push the phase inverter (the 12AT7 tube in V6) by replacing it with a softer 12AX7 (you can use the one you removed from either V1 or V2)
- if your amp as two pairs of power tubes you may make them push more easily at lower volume by removing the two in the middle (so for V7 V8 V9 V10, remove V8 and V9) so as to change their impedance expectation from the primary coil of the output transformer
The important thing is to start with everything stock to get an idea of what you might want to change. Using just the volume level on the amp, the normal behavior with increasing volume is a series of transitions from dead clear clean to slightly glassy, to light over drive on to moderate over drive. All the pushes above except the first and third ones will result in less sound level for the amp to be pushed.
First thing to consider is how you want the guitar to sound; one desired sound is where the low end is a little growly but the high end is clear, another is the reverse of that - low end is clear but the high notes get glassy. Or you might want a smooth transition across all the strings.
For jazz and many similar types of music, a favorite approach is to get the "regular sound" to reside just at the edge of glassy so when you push it with your picking firmness it rolls into the glassy-to-slightly over driven sound. This allows for a new level of articulation and phrasing that can move into and back out of the tone change at the phrase level - very bluesy and expressive.
Since this is all about harmonic distortion, you will hear an increase in high frequencies, so you may want to set your tones to sound right when pushing, and have slightly less tone when not pushing.
When trying things out, keep in mind that it's not all about the resulting tone; there is something else that is very important. Although it is psychological, there is a distinct change in the feel of the instrument when you over drive the amp - it will feel more responsive and easier to play, in spite of nothing changing with the instrument. Some of the most critical things in jazz are confidence and attitude, and this change in feel promotes both, not just to yourself, but to your band mates and the audience. Just be self aware of how the different adjustments feel to you as you play. The right one will feel easy, fast, and natural.
And just to be clear, the tones here are not distorted, fuzzy, dirty or any of that; they should really just have the sound of noticeable "more goodness" from the amp being made to breathe a little harder without the usual required volume level.
-
Yes, absolutely. Nothing worse than a 40W tube amp at volume level 1. Lifeless, anemic tone, better off plug in direct then. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
I play in a club where the house amp Fender Blues Deluxe, small space, and anything past 1 it's already too loud. But sounds like shit really at that level. I solved the problem by buying a cheap DIY volume pedal that I connect through effect loop and use as a master volume. A highly recommended trick btw, easier than dealing with attenuaters, works on all tube non master volume amps.
Now Fender Deluxe Reverb is the best amp IMO, for small and medium size clubs. At 5 it's where the magic is, and perfect volume! Clean but not really, fantastic tone.
-
IMO that magic is responsiveness: the tubes react to how hard or soft you hit the strings = dynamics. The pushed tubes recreate your playing dynamics better. And it's not just about changing volume (with playing), it's also about the upper harmonics that tubes add when hit hard, so you could go from a nice, no-drive-at-all tone to a cool, dirty-ish, "pushed" tone. Also a pushed tube amp reacts well to the guitar's volume knob, allowing many colors of "pushed" right from the guitar. Jim Campilongo actually plays this way: his Princeton Reverbs are on 10 (volume), he controls all shades of gain from the guitar's volume knob. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Clean (not pushed) tube amps can do that too, but to a lesser degree. Ditto SOME solid state designs.
-
Asking “I read something on the web. Is it true?” is a great way to get people to repeat the disagreements on the subject you’ve already read. But it’s not a very good way to answer what is a subjective question for yourself or find your own preferences.
Go try amps, or just play the one you have until you start to perceive the things you keep asking about.
-
In my world, the answer is a strong and definite: yes… followed by saying, “no doubt”.
-
Power Tubes being pushed is what people like along with driving the preamp. I think the answer is to have a smaller amp like a Fender Deluxe but have it slaved into a larger power amp that that acts as a master volume. This is for louder Rock Pop gigs.
-
Tube amps do sound good when the power section is pushed. I dunno know if it's just that I'm unlucky or finicky about sound but in practical terms I much prefer either a clean amp with a drive pedal in front or preamp overdrive from the amp. With the variety of rooms, sizes, layout, sound requirements I've played over the years it's anyone's guess whether I'll be able to turn up the amp to the exact sweet spot where it breaks up without distorting too much. A drive pedal in front of a clean amp is reproduceable. And even a clean tube amp have a threshold over which it sound its best, it's just a much easier target to hit.
-
When someone is chasing the classic Jazz Guitar Sounds of the the 50's and 60's it's only logical that they're looking at all the tube-driven equipment that was used back then- it was the ONLY stuff available and the most advanced too. But technology never stands still, it evolves constantly and today we have more and better equipment than ever before- from an objective viewpoint. For re-creating these old sounds in one's living room a reconstruction of the WHOLE signal-chain would be needed, i.e. the old guitar, the old strings, a cheap cable, a low wattage amp with an in-efficient speaker, a period-correct mic+preamp+monitor speakerbox, tape deck, recording lathe, press, home listening equipment... whew !!!
What we so often not see - or better , HEAR - is this complex series of steps between the creation of the music in the recording studio and what we hear today. We can approximate these sounds, with carefully chosen equipment and the proper playing technique and ability .
Todays digital/solid state technology is def. suitable and able to get us there , it's more a question of understanding what we want to hear and in which environment we want to hear this. Volume plays a major role, room acoustics and - most of all - our own ability and finesse on the instrument.
I fiddle with all this when I'm alone in my studio but on the gig the focus must be on making music with what we have available and get on with it.
-
Great post! And don't forget the recording mediums used back then as well... for example, anyone chasing Charlie Christian's tone has never REALLY heard what it sounded like coming out of the amp, in the room. Recording was primitive back then. Ditto for something like Kenny Burrell's "Midnight Blue" album... recorded live... altho that's obviously a much better recording than the older 30's CC stuff. Originally Posted by gitman
-
I assume that most pedal use is to approximate a pushed amp tone.
-
More like a "Kicked" amp tone , meaning the majority of pedals mimmic an amp that is running full blast, distorting the signal. The other, more recent approach is to Originally Posted by st.bede
kick the preamp into overdrive territory by boosting the signal coming into the amp. The 3rd. method involves power-scaling where one runs the amp high but part of the signal coming
from the poweramp is sucked up before it hits the speaker, making the amp quieter . A power-soak like the now very popular OX-Box comes to mind : that is the most accurate and
controllable method for getting an amp to "give it up" without disturbing the neighbors .... I once owned a big'n'heavy (original) Hiwatt-50 amp head running a 2x12" cab with a power-attenuator
and that beast actually gave a great jazz tone at tolerable levels but it was just way too big and heavy to be practical...
-
The Sweet Spot on all tube amps depends on the wattage and tube types. That along with wall voltage is always problematic for me.
Usually a 2X 6L6 or EL-34 is the best option for the most gigs people do.
I ditched tubes 10 years ago and went with Quilter Aviators. They have a great Fender Type of Clean that works with most OD and Distortion pedals well. Plus they don’t depend on wall voltage and weigh a LOT LESS!
-
I just responded to your other thread, and I know you are mostly looking for a Wes tone. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
Simply put, a tube amp sounds best for clean tones in a very specific narrow range. On my '60's Deluxe Reverb, it is precisely at 3 1/2 that it starts to sound good. Below that, it is rather thin. At 5, it starts to distort. So if from 3 1/2 to 5 is the volume you want to play at you are good for clean tones. Happily, a Deluxe Reverb in that range is almost a perfect club level, and if you need more you can use an overdrive pedal.
But at 3 1/2, it is already pretty loud (too loud for me) for home use. A Princeton is only a few less watts, but it seems a more manageable volume for home use. You should be good with the Princeton, and maybe get a distortion or OD for more dirty sounds.
Most folks on the internet are talking about how to get a tube amp to distort in a blues context, not jazz, so don't put too much stock in that. For what you want to do.
-
Basics
Every amp (tubes or SS) depends on input, i.e instrument, pedals and cables. The input is also affected by what you play and how you play (your touch and your settings). An amp can't amplify what's not there.
A tube power amp also depends on what you plug into its output jack, i.e the speaker. Basically a tube amp behaves differently subject to load. This is not just a simple matter of matching ohms, because impedance is frequency dependent, a moving target.
The speaker produces sound waves picked up by your ears and you perceive the EQ and texture of a sound. Your ears are volume dependent, i.e you'll hear things differently subject to output volume, but your ears can't detect what's not there. Furthermore, guitar speakers are non-linear and output dependent, meaning they will sound different depending on how loud you play (dB level).
Rabbithole
A passive tone stack (the tone knobs of the amp) reacts to preamp Volume setting, meaning the tonestack behaves differently subject to Volume. The topology of the circuit (the placement of the tonestack in relation to the various gain stages) affects to what extent EQ is going to be affected by the setting of the Volume knob. In particular the tone controls of a Blackface Fender amp are highly sensitive to Volume setting.
The output (SPL) for a given Volume setting depends on the sensitivity of the speaker. The lower the speaker sensitivity, the higher the amp Volume setting for a given output level.
Speaker power rating (watts) does not only indicate what output current it can survive, but also what current is expected for the speaker to sound good. High wattage speakers are stiff and usually sound stiff until they get to move some air.
All you need to know
Every amp is designed to produce the best clean tone having its volume knob centered at 12 o'clock, on certain conditions; The Input signal must match the selected Input of the amp (some amps got alternative Input options).
Adjust output level (dB) by selecting an amp of appropriate power, using your guitar Volume control and selecting pickups and speakers to match the particular amp and target volume. Volume management is your number one priority and this is where we start before moving on tweaking the tonestack. Because the tonestack can't EQ what's not there.
-
Wut?
-
I think JCat used the AI chat thing. Not sure, but it seemed a little funky to me.
-
Totally depends on the sound you are after. Tube amps sound great ultra clean and can sound very nice when Pushed.
-
I assumed the same. The robots are not the threat we thought they were. Originally Posted by st.bede
-
Of course I didn't. I don't use those bots because they can only repeat information found on the internet and as you know by now such information is not always correct. Originally Posted by st.bede
Read my post again. Bottom line; power scaling is a challenge. It's not only a matter of the power rating of the amp, but also the speakers. Low powered speakers perform on low output and vv. Tube amps are also affected by the individual speaker in ways SS amps are not.
This notion that amps have to be "pushed" is true in the sense that a powerful amp and speaker system typically don't perform very well on whisper volume.
The choice of amp and speaker is made based on output requirements. Then you don't have to push it, just use it the way it was intended.
Reply With Quote
Thoughts on the L5 Signature?
Today, 10:40 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos