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I acquired this guitar not long ago knowing it had been modified but not to what extent. I was looking for an archtop with mounted pickup and this one hit all the marks. The guitar came to me pleked and played great right out of the case (its 33yrs old) it also sounds amazing plugged in. It has "floating sound posts" under the bridge and a shimmed block under the bracing where they cross. As such although its acoustic tone is rich and resonant its not as loud as its identical sister (floater) acoustically. It was the opinion of the seller these mods were done at the factory. I finally pulled the pickup and have attached pics. It seems this was originally a crossed braced acoustic later "modded" by someone. So I do have a few questions, You can see from the pics the bracing has been cut right at the pickup. Does this create a structural weakness? Is the block under the bracing preventing the top from cracking? (i dont know when the mods were done but the git is 33yrs old and quite solid). It seems to me all the downward pressure is concentrated at the bridge so would removing those soundposts create a potential stress on the top? Ive been told it is not unusual for soundposts to be installed in lively archtops so they can be used in amplified performance to reduce feedback. Im a firm believer in "dont fix what aint broke" and the guitar is fantastic as is. Im only curious as to opinions on 1, how heinous were these mods from a guitar maker point of view 2, would/could the sound be "improved" with the removal of some of these blocks 3, since Im seriously happy and attached to this "now mongrel'" Im wondering what/if the acoustic sound would come more forward. 4, anyone out there in or near calif that wants to work on it?
Thanks, Rick
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09-18-2023 04:22 PM
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If you’re in LA and looking for a professional opinion, I take my guitars to Seth Mayer at California Vintage Guitars on Van Nuys. He knows archtop guitars and would give you some insight.
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Is that some sort of Johnny Smith Heritage?
You said the guitar sounds great; I would therefore leave it alone.
If the work was done many years ago and the guitar is structurally sound, then the work has done its job.
An archtop that amplifies well, with a carved top, is a great thing. Plus you have a humbucker, which imo sounds a gazillion times better than a floater. I bet you got it for a good price too!
Those are always the best ones.
Looks like you're on to a winner. If Johnny Smith was alive, he'd likely ask you to borrow it then never give it back!
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Thankyou! I love answers like that......especially when its what you want to hear. To be clear I have no concerns about future value, and I didnt want to brand the guitar to avoid biasing the answers (but your close). Im more curious as to "is this how you cut a hole in an x braced guitar to accept a pickup?" or " OMG the tops gonna cave in any second now!" or " the actual polite way to do it is thus...." or "what part of what Archie said didnt you get?" I promise to get pics up of the whole git soon,
Thanks
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Not sure I understand about the "X-Bracing."
Frequently the X would clear a hole for a pickup.
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Depends on where the cross takes place.
Last edited by Hammertone; 09-18-2023 at 11:24 PM.
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The guitar in question here appears to be parallel braced. I wouldn't think that cutting the braces close to the ends would have any significant effect on structural strength.
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I respect your opinion, but I think that due to the close proximity of those braces to one another, I'd say it is X braced close to the intersection of the braces. How about a mirror shot? It also appears to have a block firmly set between the top and back. You can see this in the shot looking down into the guitar, a laminated block which would essentially make much of the discussion of bracing type moot as it'd seriously dampen the acoustic decay (and character of the sustain envelope) that makes an acoustic sound so 'woody'.
Originally Posted by sgosnell
Looks like a good routing and the workmanship looks sound.
As far as what this work has done to the ephermeral character of an acoustic designed guitar, I'll just say I'll bet it's a really nice electric guitar. I know Jimmy D'Aquisto made several 'electric' guitars in his day and his opinions of even his own work on these is not a secret.
This is a stable guitar. I'd believe that based on what I see. It's a player's guitar if that's what's needed to play plugged in on a gig.
It's a good example of "The player does what ever is necessary to achieve something that allows him/her to make music."
I wish this guitar and player a long and musical partnership!
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I could certainly be wrong, and seeing the rest of the top would certainly be useful. But I'm having trouble visualizing how x bracing could put both braces that close together right at the end of the fretboard. At the bridge, yes, but not there. I don't claim to have seen it all, though.
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Remember that the photo where you see the brace ends is looking AT the bridge, that means it's the perspective from the neck looking over and into the cut where the top end of the X was removed. Originally Posted by sgosnell
That cut may be at the end of the fingerboard but it's not at the end of the top. The neck overhang is a good 2.5" from the edge of the top. That puts that visible cut close to the top end of the X just north of the nexus point. Close braces at that point.
Look at the photo in Hammetone's post. Now imagine the rectangle of neck overhang and then cut your pickup hole. See how close the braces are at that point?
Bear in mind that if it were originally built as designed for a pickup, that X would have the crossing point closer to the bridge but this was built AS an acoustic, so the X is centred near the middle of the guitar for best energy transmission and support. That means the brace intersection is closer to the neck than it would be if you were allowing for a pickup cut. That's why it's generally a good idea to build for intended design from the start. Those braces were designed, placed, cut, fitted and tuned to move an entire uninterrupted top. I build X braced archtops. It wouldn't make sense to place the X that far down if you didn't need to accommodate a hole.
But yeah, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I'd sure love to see just what kind of a block is wedged/glued in there between the top and the back.
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Thanks for the input! Ill get more pics up today. Tryin to get my camera in the guitar but I think I need a bigger hammer or a sawzall! My kid said hed help me out. inspecting with a dental mirror its definitely cross braced. The posts are shimmed and dont appear to be glued (but dont want to move either) there are 4 posts, 2 at the bridge 1 behind the bracing cross point towards tail and the one you can see good in the picture is right at the pickup hole. Once again I know the smart thing to do is play and be happy.....my question is could the added posts be safely removed, if they were would it sound better? the guitar has a beautiful and lively sound even with all the damping and I can imagine it being feedbackprone when it was an acoustic. I dont play out or in combos anymore so playing loud isnt an issue and I can only wonder what the tone would be like without the blocks. This is a '90 set up by Ren originally, He remembered the guitar and said it was definitely a one off that they had never done the asymmetrical headstock on any other guitar also 5 ply binding on the f holes was very custom. He also said that on most of the special one offs they did back then they knew the buyer, either a dealer or known player although they never knew who ordered this. What amazes me is that you would order a custom build at this level and then "modify" it ?! Whats also very interesting to me is that it has a TW doyle p.u., I had never heard of it or seen one till this but shortly after I bought a 575 that has one ('02) seeming to be original equipment. I can say theyre fantastic pickups and kind of a funny coincidence the only 2 Ive ever seen or heard of came to me weeks apart on heritage guitars. Thanks again for all the input.
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That pickup looks like it weighs a ton!
That upright post that isn't touching the top; you could remove that.
But again; if it ain't broke...
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If they put that post in there, I'd strongly suspect that it was for a reason. I'd leave it in there.
It reminds me of a story told to me of a house they'd just sold. The old owner had bought the house from the original owner who designed and built it and had it fully landscaped in conjunction with that landscaper. He was told "No matter what you do, NEVER touch that willow tree at the end of the driveway." And for 20 years, that willow was a landmark of the property.
The new owner moved in, was given the mysterious inherited warning about the tree. A year later that owner decided to go ahead and cut the tree down. Almost immediately, the ground at the bottom of the driveway started to get soggy. Then wet. Then marshy. And with the first rainfall, a small lake appeared and engulfed the driveway completely. That lake never receded and it actually grew, and the driveway was lost beneath a foot of standing water.
The willow, like balsa is mostly water. Extremely light and supple when dry (as anyone who binds guitaris with willow linings will tell you) and heavier than an iron weight when alive. That tree had taken on the entire water table and had been there not as a mere shade tree, but as the wick that kept the house on dry land.
If somebody puts something there that appears to be holding something in place, especially if it's a retrofit for something designed to be substantially different, I wouldn't mess with it.
The mystery is, that guitar could not have been cheap. And I'll bet it sounded beautiful. Why mess with it when you could buy a Casino or ES 330 that has integrity built into it?
By the same token, if they cut the top and determined that it needed support because a load bearing beam had been severed, let it be.
If you do want a more acoustic guitar, consider and Eastman solid top and hear what an integral brace and top can really do.
Don't think any more about the guitar. It's fine and it's been through enough. Play it and make lots of beautiful music together.
My opinion anyway.
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The top of that post is domed. It's a common practice that assures one point of contact and precludes chalk fitting, which is no small feat working from the inside of the guitar. It's domed so it appears not to be touching the top, but it is. It's measured, domed, placed and then wedged the way a violin sound post is placed. You can see the edges aren't flush but be assured, it's contacting the top and back solidly. Originally Posted by Archie
By the way, this post may be similar to a violin or cello set up but where a bowed instrument has a constant input from the bow, the guitar feeds off of the energy of the plucked string alone. Different energy input system. Different designs. Maybe not so well thought out from the onset.
I'd dissuade you from removing it. Take it for what it is.
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Thankyou JBN! I just wanted to know that the work looked ok and functional. I was looking for a mounted pickup specifically when I spied this. I have a nice acoustic archtop so happy in that dept. The work was obviously "after the fact" and I had no way of judging if it was "workmanlike" Im now comforted and strumming along happily. It really does sound great with that Doyle pickup. Thank for the inspection.
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Man, you're collecting those Doyle-loaded Heritages, aren't you! There's a set of Doyles on Reverb I'm sort of tempted to pick up and put in my ES-175.
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Great discussion and very interesting read about a beautiful guitar.
It's a pleasure to enjoy the experience and knowledge of the participants, and the thoughtful interaction a soothing rejoinder to some of the chaos that surrounds us. It's like guitar Zen, and with that peace that comes from a good resolving cord.
I bet that thing plays and sounds fantastic.
Thanks.
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Ha! you should know. BTW the one I got from you is my all time fave, we bonded immediately and she's what I play every day. Almost silly that I grabbed this one as theyre practically the same except for scale length, I figured Id keep the one I liked best but Im crazy for this one too. Ive got the 575 I got from you strung with flats and this one with rounds. Im really impressed with these Doyle pickups I just went through a pickup swap (neck only) on my '74 175. I was sorely tempted to snag one off one of heritages but got lazy. I really think you should do it and upload sound files for us! Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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You know, that routing really is quite clean for the pickup hole. And from the photographs, it looks like the finish on the edges of the wood is the same as the finish on the top. That makes me question whether the guitar was modified before the finish was applied or whether it was re-sprayed afterwards, perhaps even at the Heritage factory?
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Funny you should say that, I noticed that also but I know so little about guitar building I wasnt sure what to ask. It has pretty heavy "spider checking" that I have been assured by quite a few experienced builders and collectors Ive shown it to that its not uncommon especially on older instruments. I had originally thought about getting it refinished but when I mentioned that virtually everyone was adamant about not touching the finish. Its a beautiful heritage color so Im happy with that. I do wonder who where when and why someone would modify this one, however the outcome is that it sounds great as an electric which is what I was looking for. I really appreciate all the input. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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That would explain it. Thank for showing that.Depends on where the cross takes place.
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