Epiphone Century v Gibson ES 125

[edpirie]

Hi, I'm hoping someone here has experience of these two archtops. I would like a 125 but they have rocketed in price in the UK - you have to pay the best part of £3,000 for a decent one nowadays. I read somewhere that the late 50's and early 60's Epiphone Century is virtually identical, being made in the same factory to the same specs. It won't have the same value as a collector's item, but then it's a lot more affordable to start off with. These too have gone up a lot recently, but there's one for £1,500 at the moment in the UK which is a lot more palatable. The listing says 1955 but I think it must be closer to 1959 which is when they first started using the P90. https://reverb.com/uk/item/68394543-...iABEgIUcPD_BwE

Any experience of the P90 Century and whether it really is as good as the 125?

[stevo58]

According to the NY Epiphone Registry, if the serial number is 68090, it’s a 1954 Century. The photo there is of the same guitar. The pickup, tailpiece, and knobs have been changed. It was built before Gibson bought Epiphone, and was built in Epi’s New York factory, so it has nothing to do with a 125. New York Epiphones are fine guitars, and although it’s too bad the original pickup is gone, a P90 is no slouch. If it is structurally solid and you like the way it feels and sounds, you’ll have (imho) a fine guitar. Functionally it will be much the same as a 125.

The pickup shown on the other guitars in that batch is a ToneSpectrum. They switched later to a DeArmond.


Those knobs would drive me nuts. They look like stove knobs. I’d find repros of the original carousel knobs, or maybe chickenheads, just for my peace of mind.

[edpirie]

Thanks for that, very helpful, I wasn't aware of the Epi Registry site. It explains why this is a full body with P90 as everything I'd found about the Gibson models said they were thinline. I've read mixed comments on the NY pickup, but a lot of the draw of the 125 is the original Gibson P90, and no indication on the listing of this one's origins. It's a fair trek from where I live so will have to see about a road trip - definitely not one to buy without trying in person.

[JCat]

I play a '65 Century. Compared to an ES-125 thinline, the most obvious difference is:

The Century is long scale (25.5" was standard on Epiphone archtops) vs Gibson (24.75").

The Century originally got an Epiphone single coil pickup. (Mine got a dogear Gibson P-90, like the ES-125). Other than that, they share common features like a diamond Trapez tail, a wooden bridge, 3 in a row Kluson tuners, a plywood top and unbound fretboard with dot-inlays.

The Century got an oversized headstock that combined with the long scale and large body size makes this one of the longest guitars ever made. Finding a matching replacement case is virtually impossible.

Note that these thinlines are supposed to be amplified, they are not acoustic guitars. The acoustic tone is thin and plinky, the amplified tone is glorious.

[daverepair]

Another difference between the Epiphones and a Gibson: both eras of Epiphone(NYC, and Kalamazoo) likely have an 1-5/8” nut width. For those made in NY, the neck carve is ‘full’, but not huge, making for a very comfortable neck shape. However, IMO, those made in Kalamazoo will not be as full, and for me, not nearly as comfortable( I leave aside the really skinny 1-9/16” necks on many Gibson made instruments in the mid ‘60’s). A Century from either era, with a comfortable neck, and a good pickup, would compare favorably with a 125, IMO. I’m not so fond of the NY single coils.

There was a thinline 125, called an ES-125T.

[JCat]

Another difference between the Epiphones and a Gibson: both eras of Epiphone(NYC, and Kalamazoo) likely have an 1-5/8” nut width. For those made in NY, the neck carve is ‘full’, but not huge, making for a very comfortable neck shape. However, IMO, those made in Kalamazoo will not be as full, and for me, not nearly as comfortable( I leave aside the really skinny 1-9/16” necks on many Gibson made instruments in the mid ‘60’s). A Century from either era, with a comfortable neck, and a good pickup, would compare favorably with a 125, IMO. I’m not so fond of the NY single coils.

There was a thinline 125, called an ES-125T.

Yes, correct. Nut measures 1.62" = 1 5/8". This was a common spec historically, also on some high end Gibsons.
Later in the 60's the Kalamazoo-made guitars got even narrower; I think 1 9/16 = 1.56" was common from the second half of the decade and well into the 70s.
Other than that 1 11/16" = 1.68" has been the most common standard on Gibson guitars. (1.68 or 1.62 makes no difference to me, but 1.56 is tight.).

The 60s Kalamazoo Epiphone Century was called E-422T. "T" for thinline, no cut away.
There was the Gibson ES-125T but also the ES-125TC (Thinline with cut away).

[lammie200]

I just bought a 1965 ES-125TC and received it a couple of days ago. I am nearly overwhelmed by how nice it is. It was either a closet queen or like a factory refinish 45-50 years ago. None of the screws have much wear on them so I think the finish is original. The pickguard was replaced with a very accurate replacement as far as I can tell. The bracket and screws for the pickguard look original though. And whoever had it was smart enough to remove the original pickguard so that there is no damage from off gassing. With the exception of what looks like one incident of buckle rash on the back the thing is like a mint relic with uniform checking through out. The P90 is dead silent which threw me because I thought that there would be some hum to deal with. The nut width is 1-11/16" and the neck profile right in a sweet spot of heft and medium. I am super happy but I still need to restring it and am waiting for strings to arrive. I will let you do the math but if I would have bought this in 1965 I would have paid $275 for it including the tax and shipping that I paid now. I will post pics and a sound clip (if I can figure out how to do the sound clip well) in the next few days.

Edit: I managed to find out the MSRP of a 1965 ES-125TC. It was $240 + 14.50 for a case comparable to what I received. So, I overpaid by $20.50 1965 US dollars but I suppose there might have been sales tax added so maybe I overpaid by slightly less than that. It was a deal that I couldn't pass up. Also one other observation: I know that Gibson quality is inconsistent. But there were times when it was spot on. And not only spot on but really well done considering the level of this guitar compared to the full on decorated jazz boxes. In no way other than appointments is a guitar like this any less playable nor has the sound both acoustically and electrically been short changed.

[stevo58]

Agree with daverepair regarding the neck. I have smallish hands, but the full (C-shape?) neck of my 1950 Devon is just right. I also have a ‘58 ES-125T, and the neck is much smaller. Still playable, but the Epi neck is a dream.

[MrFixie]

Hi, I'm hoping someone here has experience of these two archtops. I would like a 125 but they have rocketed in price in the UK - you have to pay the best part of £3,000 for a decent one nowadays. I read somewhere that the late 50's and early 60's Epiphone Century is virtually identical, being made in the same factory to the same specs. It won't have the same value as a collector's item, but then it's a lot more affordable to start off with. These too have gone up a lot recently, but there's one for £1,500 at the moment in the UK which is a lot more palatable. The listing says 1955 but I think it must be closer to 1959 which is when they first started using the P90. 1951-1956 Epiphone Century archtop guitar, P 90 pick up, | Reverb UK

Any experience of the P90 Century and whether it really is as good as the 125?

If you’re based in the UK, there’s another one here with original pickup, knobs etc. being sold in Headcorn, Kent.

Epiphone Century 1953 Natural Blonde | Reverb

It’s in beautiful condition. I’ve played it, and it sounds and feels great. It’s laminated, so not an acoustic instrument, but I was actually surprised by its voice unplugged. One thing to mention was that I found it very heavy. Don’t know how it compares to an ES125 but I had a 1950 ES175 with a P90 which was definitely a nicer instrument than the Century, though a lot more expensive! I’m a big fan of the NY Epiphones though … great instruments. I chose a old NY Epiphone archtop with a floating pickup instead because I wanted the acoustic sound, but the Century is definitely a very nice instrument.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[edpirie]

Thanks for the heads up MrFixie. That looks a great example and if it was closer I'd take a look. However at £2k+ it's getting close to 125 territory so I think I'd be better off holding off and saving a few more pennies.

[sgosnell]

I have a 1953 Century, made in NY. The Century was a student model, one of the cheapest offered. Mine has a relatively thick plywood top, with no braces. It does have a surprisingly loud acoustic volume, though. As mentioned, the neck is comparatively narrow, but deep, and very comfortable to play. The original pickup is long gone, replaced with a humbucker somewhere along the line. AFAICT the only thing original on it is the carousel knobs, everything else has been changed, and the body refinished. It isn't worth much on the market, but it's enjoyable to play, and it sounds pretty good amplified. 1500 GBP seems high to me, but I'm not familiar with the market on that side of the pond. I'm pretty sure that guitar has been refinished, just as mine has. AFAIK they didn't come in blonde, only sunburst, but I could be wrong. That's certainly not the original pickup, but it probably sounds okay. The original wasn't the greatest pickup ever made.

[stevo58]

Felix lists blonde as an option as of 1953. It’s also listed as an option in the 1954 catalog.

[JCat]

Note that Gibson aquired Epiphone in 1957. "Century" was an archtop model name used by Epiphone decades before Gibson took over.

In the early 60s, there was a few joint developments; guitar models that were developed in a collaboration between Gibson and Epiphone builders and manufactured in the Gibson plant in Kalamazoo. One such model was the "Century E422T" thinline, which basically was an ES-125, but with a long scale as of the traditional Epiphone standard.

The E422T, just like the ES-125, was an entry level archtop that didn't get the bells and whistles; only one single coil pickup and a wooden bridge...in an era when the top models got two humbuckers and a ToM-bridge. The neck was unbound with dot markers that justified a low price tag. These no-nonsense, no-frills guitars are loved by players because they are excellent, reliable and good sounding instruments.

Prior to Gibson ownership and joint collaboration, the Epiphone Century was a full depth archtop made by Epiphone in NY. This model was different, even though it was competing on the same niche as the full depth ES-125 of the time.

Enter the 60s and Jazz music is in decline. The pop acts went for thinlines and semis. These guitars basically filled the purpose of pleasing the camp that for various reasons didn't think of a solidbody as a real guitar. Obviously a thinline is acoustically louder than a solidbody, which could perhaps serve a purpose for practicing and song writing when on tour, in the bus, in the hotel room etc, but other than that thinlines are supposed to be amplified.