The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Just out of curiosity, does anyone use a "British" speaker in their amps? I ask because I plugged a Blackface style into an amp with a Scumback H75 speaker that was sitting around and really liked the sound.

    I'm wondering if anyone uses these for jazz playing? I think I saw Jack Zucker is into them.

    Brands that count as "British"
    - Celestion
    - Scumback
    - Fane
    - WGS British Invasion
    - Eminence Red Coat Series


    The ones that specifically have gotten my interest (probably just because the baskets are so pretty) are Celestion Cream Alnico, Celestion Creamback H75, Fane F70, and Fane A60. Scumbuck H75 is less pretty but man it really sounded nice when I plugged in.

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  3. #2

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    I had a Scumback M75 in my BFDR for several years and liked it, but not so much for jazz. A bit too much in the upper mids.

    I recently replaced it with a Fat Jimmy 1270, more to my liking. It has more of an "American" tonality, for want of a better term.

  4. #3
    Count me in for a Tweed Deluxe with a celestion alnico speaker … pure vintage bliss.

  5. #4

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    I have a Jenson Mod (which if I remember correctly is their take on a british speaker), in my Princeton (non-verb). It sounds great.

  6. #5

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    A 10-inch 16 Ohm Fane, in a Hiwatt Custom 7.

  7. #6

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    I've got many amps and speakers. When it comes to Jazz and American roots music, I'm all Jensen. I've reached a point where I stay away from anything that reminds me of a Celestion Greenback for anything but loud, distorted tones, aka "Rock". (basically the opposite of Jazz). To my ears the upper mid range sounds hollow, thin and plinky. Some call it "chimey", an attribute I do not associate with good Jazz tone.

    Remember that the "Brit invasion" (Beatles, Zeppelin & co played Vox and Marshall amps incl. Celestion speakers) has absolutley nothing to do with Jazz. It's actually the opposite of Jazz in every possible way. So, arguably the Celestion legacy could be seen as a reaction against Jazz...

    Having said that, just like you could play Jazz on any guitar, you obviously also could play Jazz on any speaker. Whatever rocks your boat so to speak. The Vox AC 30 is a fine Jazz amp. There are many Jazz tones and the experimentation phase is important, so I guess from that perspective you're on the right track.

  8. #7

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    I was saving all my one dollar bills from my gig tip money, a gear fund. I finally had about $700 in ones and I bought a SF Twin from a guy in San Antonio for $500. It had celestions in it that I planned on replacing because a) Celestions are for Marshalls, b) Celestions are now chinese c) I have extra JBL D and K series.

    I had both my Twins switched to BF wiring as S.O.P. I let a buddy play through it one night with those speakers and he told me "that amp sounds killer". It does sound good, clean or distorted. I took a closer look at the speakers they were G12-100AVT and marked made in England. Discontinued. So I kept them in there instead of blowing some JBL's every six months which had become the usual routine. It is my "lightweight" Twin.

    I will say that I have always hated the standard G12T-75 that comes in a stock 1960 cab so I would hope the creamback H version is substantially different? I guess that's why I was surprised by these speakers as I was expecting a lot of top end harshness from these Celestions the way the stock 1960 cab puts off. The AVT's I have now are very smooth, detailed, and balanced. Not as much bite or volume as a JBL but still a solid tone.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgBone
    I was saving all my one dollar bills from my gig tip money, a gear fund. I finally had about $700 in ones and I bought a SF Twin from a guy in San Antonio for $500. It had celestions in it that I planned on replacing because a) Celestions are for Marshalls, b) Celestions are now chinese c) I have extra JBL D and K series.

    I had both my Twins switched to BF wiring as S.O.P. I let a buddy play through it one night with those speakers and he told me "that amp sounds killer". It does sound good, clean or distorted. I took a closer look at the speakers they were G12-100AVT and marked made in England. Discontinued. So I kept them in there instead of blowing some JBL's every six months which had become the usual routine. It is my "lightweight" Twin.

    I will say that I have always hated the standard G12T-75 that comes in a stock 1960 cab so I would hope the creamback H version is substantially different? I guess that's why I was surprised by these speakers as I was expecting a lot of top end harshness from these Celestions the way the stock 1960 cab puts off. The AVT's I have now are very smooth, detailed, and balanced. Not as much bite or volume as a JBL but still a solid tone.
    Some years back my pal. Duncan James asked me to sell an amp for him. Duncan, BTW, was in George Barnes' last quartet and is about as good a jazz guitarist as there is. He and I played many gigs together back in the day. Duncan was pushing 70 at the time that he wanted me to sell his amp, a Musicman Combo with a single 12 inch speaker. Duncan lived in a San Francisco apartment and did not think having people come over to check out the amp was a good idea. IIRC, he told me to keep $50 from the proceeds, hardly worth the trouble of selling an amp, buy he was/is a pal, so I agreed to do it.

    Well, when I brought it home, I noticed that it had a Celestion speaker in it (G12-100 made in England). I called Duncan to ask why the amp did not have the original speaker, and he said that in the 80's it was a common mod to reduce the weight of the stock EV speaker. It sounded great for jazz. But I ended up making more work for myself. I sourced a vintage EV speaker and returned the amp to stock (figuring most cats want a bone stock amp and will pay top dollar for it when so equipped). I sold the Celestion speaker for what I paid for the EV and ended up selling the amp rather quickly. Duncan was happy, I made less than minimum wage for my efforts, but I helped a pal and I did get to check out a vintage Musicman amp. Those were interesting amps. They had a 6L6 tube power amp section with a solid state pre-amp and reverb. Totally the opposite of what I would want in a hybrid amp, but Leo had his own ideas to be sure!

    Here is the kicker. IMO, that amp sounded way better for jazz with the Celestion speaker than with the EV. And that to me, was counter intuitive. I think the notion that British speakers are bad for jazz is invalid. Almost every speaker, in the right amp, can deliver a fine jazz tone. Speakers, amps, guitars, strings, pickups, pots. cables etc. are all parts of a whole. The synergy of the right combination of parts is what gets you to the tone in your head, not where a speaker is made (or whether it is a "British" voice vs. an "American" voice).

    "British" speakers-celestion-g12-100-jpg

  10. #9

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    As usual, 'British' means English. Therefore these amplifiers are made to be placed on a high shelf so that they can look down on you from above...
    Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 05-25-2023 at 01:58 PM.

  11. #10

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    My speaker has an American flag on it, so I guess not?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    As usual, 'British' means English. Therefore these amplifiers are made to be placed high on a shelf so that the can look down on you from above...
    Way too direct! Follow the program. For example, this episode:

    Just now in my local Sainsbury's, a scene so British it would be hard to invent it. A man was walking around putting items into an overstuffed bag. The nice female manager, walking the aisles, asked him "Would you like a basket for that?". "No thank you," he replied politely "I'm nicking it". He then put one more item in his bag and walked out of the shop. So, yes, a crime was committed, but social decorum was maintained at all times.”

  13. #12

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    I have never really paid much attention to the amp I'm playing through honestly, but I have to say whatever Celestions come in the Tm Twin reverb sound great for jazz IMHO. I also have EVM 12s in my Mark IV and 1980 Acoustic G100T and those speakers also sound very good. My rock 'go to' cabinet has 2 Celestion V30s in it, but since all my amps are combos I usually hear those with one of the EVMs so really can't say how they would sound on their own, but they've always sounded good to me for whatever I did play through them.

  14. #13
    Thanks all for the responses.

    I definitely think there's a common assumption that British speakers have less bass and excessive responsiveness in the upper midrange. The misconception probably comes from the fact that Celestion speakers are common in Vox amps, which have those characteristics.

    But I think when I plugged into the scumback I was really surprised. The speaker has a very resonant low end, plenty of lower mids (200-600kz), and a slight scoop in the higher mids to treble (1kz - 2kz), all while having a decent amount of what people call "sparkle" or "air" (5khz+). With an archtop and a clean amp, this produces a very full and warm tone; almost acoustic in quality.

    I'm gonna mess with some british speakers for a bit; hope to record some demos for yall.

  15. #14
    Well I got a celestion creamback h75 to try out. ordered it from amazon so i could take advantage of free next day delivery. The free delivery also included substantial trauma to the package. The frame was bent and the voice coil went out of alignment. Back to square one.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    Well I got a celestion creamback h75 to try out. ordered it from amazon so i could take advantage of free next day delivery. The free delivery also included substantial trauma to the package. The frame was bent and the voice coil went out of alignment. Back to square one.
    It'd probably still sound better than the G12T-75 model.....

    I think that's where Celestion got known for the excess upper midrange response. All those 1960A 4x12 cabs loaded with em, there were so many floating around during the 90's.... If you didn't play metal those cabs generally are too bright. Same for the Vintage 30 speakers IMO. Hook a plexi to those and then an AX greenback cab and it's night and day.

    Hopefully you get a new speaker quickly. Interested to hear your feedback on how it sounds. I find playing with speakers and tubes to be more worthwhile than pedals and other stuff.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    As usual, 'British' means English. Therefore these amplifiers are made to be placed on a high shelf so that they can look down on you from above...
    Never happy those Scots ... whether you use "English" instead of "British" or the other way round. Is it our fault if there are no Gaelic speaker manufacturers?

  18. #17

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    I'm a big fan of old Celestions with original cones. They have made many different kinds of guitar speakers over the years, but usually the ones that get the attention are the alnico 15 or 25 watt or the ceramic 25 or 20 watt. Their appeal IMO is more about the gradual and smooth way that they start to add harmonics as they are pushed, than their frequency response as such, which is not that different than a Jensen P12N. The Jensen has a little more usable bass and a little less midrange. Those differences can be easily overcome elsewhere. Here's frequency response graphs for the current production versions of each.

    Celestion Blue:

    "British" speakers-t4427-celestion-blue-copy-jpg

    P12N:

    "British" speakers-jensen_p12n_-frequency_response_-_impedance-png

  19. #18

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    Could not resist

  20. #19

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    I think that the US vs UK speaker dilemma is stronger in distorted rock sounds than cleanish jazz sounds and it depends on amps too (Marshall vs Fender).

    I have a DIY allround combo for any music. The amp section is Quiter TB202 and the speaker is a Celestion Cream Alnico. Super speaker! It’s pricey but I found a decent priced (and broke in) one and I could not be happier. Balanced traditional guitar sound with a nice Alnico bite and flavor.

    I have had Greenbacks in my Vox, Blue Alnico in my Princeton and several Jensens & Webers in my Fendery amps (plus CTS’s & Eminences in my Polytones) and most of them can be just great speaker for jazz & other genres.

    In fact the ’classic jazz guitar sound’ is much about the mids. And I have found that the Jensen + Blackfront Fender combination can be a bit thin and boomy because the scooped mids. That’s why the Twin is so good in jazz: it has the Mid pot.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    I've got many amps and speakers. When it comes to Jazz and American roots music, I'm all Jensen. I've reached a point where I stay away from anything that reminds me of a Celestion Greenback for anything but loud, distorted tones, aka "Rock". (basically the opposite of Jazz). To my ears the upper mid range sounds hollow, thin and plinky. Some call it "chimey", an attribute I do not associate with good Jazz tone.

    Remember that the "Brit invasion" (Beatles, Zeppelin & co played Vox and Marshall amps incl. Celestion speakers) has absolutley nothing to do with Jazz. It's actually the opposite of Jazz in every possible way. So, arguably the Celestion legacy could be seen as a reaction against Jazz...

    Having said that, just like you could play Jazz on any guitar, you obviously also could play Jazz on any speaker. Whatever rocks your boat so to speak. The Vox AC 30 is a fine Jazz amp. There are many Jazz tones and the experimentation phase is important, so I guess from that perspective you're on the right track.
    What do You say? Opposite of jazz? I think that far away from that. There would not be rock without jazz, they are straight decendants. They are close relatives, both are born from blues.

    If You don’t like some genre it will not make it ”an opposite” of the genre You love. Except in Your ears.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    What do You say? Opposite of jazz? I think that far away from that. There would not be rock without jazz, they are straight decendants. They are close relatives, both are born from blues.

    If You don’t like some genre it will not make it ”an opposite” of the genre You love. Except in Your ears.
    I did say "arguably" and I did provoke a reaction, didn't I.
    We all make our choices to be happy, be it the pretty color of the basket or something else.
    Only you know what's relevant for you. I stay away from "chimey", thats all.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    I did say "arguably" and I did provoke a reaction, didn't I.
    We all make our choices to be happy, be it the pretty color of the basket or something else.
    Only you know what's relevant for you. I stay away from "chimey", thats all.
    For a second before I sent my post I thought that ”but if this is a troll?” but sent it anyway. This proves that it was a troll.

    About the ’chime’ and UK /US speakers it must be noted that Jensen advertises some of its US speakers with that word, so who knows what is what and what is opposite of which!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    For a second before I sent my post I thought that ”but if this is a troll?” but sent it anyway. This proves that it was a troll.

    About the ’chime’ and UK /US speakers it must be noted that Jensen advertises some of its US speakers with that word, so who knows what is what and what is opposite of which!
    Don't feed the troll
    There's a huge variety of speakers within the respecive family and some Jensen speakers are close to some Celestions. But on average, there is a tangible difference. When people try to describe this difference they often fall short of words. They use clichés like "chimey" etc. without grasping the meaning of the word or what character they are trying to describe. I for one don't like it, call it what you want.


  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    What do You say? Opposite of jazz? I think that far away from that. There would not be rock without jazz, they are straight decendants. They are close relatives, both are born from blues.

    If You don’t like some genre it will not make it ”an opposite” of the genre You love. Except in Your ears.
    I believe you are making contradictory statements here, in my mind rock is not a straight descendent of jazz, it is much more closely descended from blues and country music.

    Your second statement, they are close relatives, is tp me more supportable, the genres split a while ago and are two separate forks, except maybe for jazz inspired rock like Steely Dan.

    BTW I like both genres, no axe to grind here!

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herbie
    For a second before I sent my post I thought that ”but if this is a troll?” but sent it anyway. This proves that it was a troll.

    About the ’chime’ and UK /US speakers it must be noted that Jensen advertises some of its US speakers with that word, so who knows what is what and what is opposite of which!
    ''

    While both make speakers that mimic the other, I think the point stands concerning British versus American style speakers, with classic British being Celestion Blue alnico or Greenback types, quite different from each other but both exhibiting upper mid "push", and American speakers like Jensens showing a bit more of a recessed mid or "scooped" sound. Other American speakers are higher powered and more neutral, like EV's and JBL's.

    For the record, I can get pretty nice jazz sounds out of my vintage AC15 with a Celestion blue, or a pair of vintage Greenbacks in an extension cab, but it is a different tone from the more "American" sound I usually use, Fat Jimmy 1260's, sort of a nice full sounding heavier duty Jensen vibe.

    It should be noted that the very fact that Jensen and Cessation market speakers with the other's tonality is evidence enough that they are aware that difference exists.