What Is Going On With The Gibson Brand Now?

[stratology]

Would you buy local produce at a farmer's market from someone whose politics were different than yours?

It's not about the politics of individuals. Every company has employees of all political colors.

It's about companies donating to politicians, and financing divisiveness.



So, if you spend money on an instrument, part of that money goes into the pockets of politicians.

I would prefer if that money went into the pockets of the guitar builders working in the company - regardless of where they stand politically.

[DawgBone]

It's not about the politics of individuals. Every company has employees of all political colors.

It's about companies donating to politicians, and financing divisiveness.



So, if you spend money on an instrument, part of that money goes into the pockets of politicians.

I would prefer if that money went into the pockets of the guitar builders working in the company - regardless of where they stand politically.

"Regardless of where they stand politically".....Now you're playing the not-choosing-sides card. Except you already let the cat out of the bag with your own divisive politics in previous posts. In a guitar thread. Gibson's conservative stance ruffles your feathers more so you have more to say about it, obviously.

[stratology]

"Regardless of where they stand politically".....Now you're playing the not-choosing-sides card. Except you already let the cat out of the bag with your own divisive politics in previous posts. In a guitar thread. Gibson's conservative stance ruffles your feathers more so you have more to say about it, obviously.

I don't donate to any politicians, ever.

I don't know what's so hard to understand when I don't want to donate by proxy, if I don't donate directly.



You talk about Gibson's 'conservative stance', when others have stated that Gibson donates to both parties.
If it would matter, I would ask which one it is - but it does not matter.
No money for flipping politicians. In any country, for any party.

[DawgBone]

No money for flipping politicians. In any country, for any party.

You really expect people to take your comments seriously when you have been so blatantly political in past posts? My hypothesis is you aren't applying the same thinking to all your other purchases, which would discredit most all you have to say here. Because guitars and music gear i.e entertainment make better political soapboxes than socks or shoes. Again, if you were serious about it you'd avoid Gibson for being a garbage employer, not cause they make some political donations you might disagree with. I doubt you get as fired up about who makes your more commonplace items and who they might donate to which leads to my final conclusion that you are completely full of it.

[stratology]

For people who do not live in the US, shooting kids is not really divisive.


An outside perspective, at the risk of sounding cynical:

One way to reasonably deal with it would be to, politically, continue with the status quo - no changes to gun laws, how guns are handled, gun culture, etc. - just change the targets.


Meaning, instead of people shooting kids, parents of dead kids take up guns. They have the right to defend their kids.


A politician of one party says 'thoughts and prayers' - BANG - bullet in the head.
A politician of the opposing party cries a little crocodile tear and says 'let's put flags on half mast' - BANG - bullet in the head.

Let's not rush things, let's keep the number of politicians shot dead per day to 50-60% of children shot dead, for a start. Equally distributed between parties. Perfectly reasonable.


Don't change your gun culture. Just choose your targets more sensibly.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

You may be agitating about the past Gibson. That Gibson, and all of its glorious guitars, is but a memory at this point.

I’ll drink to that, and have some grilled fajitas smoked with Indian rosewood, lol.

[SandChannel]

This is a helluva thread.

[m_d]

For people who do not live in the US, shooting kids is not really divisive.


An outside perspective, at the risk of sounding cynical:

One way to reasonably deal with it would be to, politically, continue with the status quo - no changes to gun laws, how guns are handled, gun culture, etc. - just change the targets.


Meaning, instead of people shooting kids, parents of dead kids take up guns. They have the right to defend their kids.


A politician of one party says 'thoughts and prayers' - BANG - bullet in the head.
A politician of the opposing party cries a little crocodile tear and says 'let's put flags on half mast' - BANG - bullet in the head.

Let's not rush things, let's keep the number of politicians shot dead per day to 50-60% of children shot dead, for a start. Equally distributed between parties. Perfectly reasonable.


Don't change your gun culture. Just choose your targets more sensibly.

Gun ownership in Switzerland is as high as in the US or close. Incidents are once per decade. Politicians actually respect, and fear the population, as it should be, although that also has a lot to do with our brilliant political system which creates obstacles for them at every turn. The constitution calls the people "the sovereign". And I guess you don't follow the news, or only selectively. The atrocious, despicable police brutality and abuses of power going on at this time in some European countries is not due to armed citizens but the State, policemen decked like the Empire's stormtroopers, and it would not be possible with an armed populace. US gun rules have a fair point.

[SandChannel]

Gun ownership in Switzerland is as high as in the US or close. Incidents are once per decade. Politicians actually respect, and fear the population, as it should be, although that also has a lot to do with our brilliant political system which creates obstacles for them at every turn. The constitution calls the people "the sovereign". And I guess you don't follow the news, or only selectively. The atrocious, despicable police brutality and abuses of power going on at this time in some European countries is not due to armed citizens but the State, policemen decked like the Empire's stormtroopers, and it would not be possible with an armed populace. US gun rules have a fair point.

Gun ownership is high in Switzerland, but let's not conflate them with the US. The Swiss have a fundamental right to firearms, but if you want a handgun, you nee to apply for a permit - that is only valid for 9 months. Both guns and ammo sales are regulated and must be reported - even private sales. Guns and ammunition must be stored separately - even in the home. A permit is required for concealed carry - otherwise the firearms must be transported unloaded. The Swiss militia can keep their guns at home - but the ammunition is stored at the base.

I don't really have a problem with American gun ownership. My issue is more with the lack of sensible regulations (and the fetishism that prevents some people from being able to discuss regulations).

[Archie]

This is a helluva thread.

This is what happens when the subject has been discussed by all those interested. It’s now a vehicle for wider political discussion; as is the tradition.

It’s about 10 posts from getting locked.

P.s I think the swiss have the highest rates of suicide by gun due to the high level of possession.

[DawgBone]

As a European, it is almost my job to hold my nose at American manufacturing. .

I'm sorry to inform you that there is almost no real American manufacturing unless you count the mil-industrial-media deep state spewing it's political bullshit on the nightly sci-fi news as "production" in which case we've never produced more. It doesn't make good fertilizer though and even if it did you can't get an American made shovel to move it and if you could you couldn't get an American worker to get off their ass and start shoveling for less than a king's ransom. So really you have nothing to thumb your nose at.

If China ever figures out how to make a decent set of potentiometers and a quality 3 way toggle switch US guitar production will be gone forever.

[Phil59]

This is what happens when the subject has been discussed by all those interested. It’s now a vehicle for wider political discussion; as is the tradition.

It’s about 10 posts from getting locked.

P.s I think the swiss have the highest rates of suicide by gun due to the high level of possession.

Wrong. Check before you post
Countries with the Highest Rates of Firearm-Related Suicide (per 100k) in 2019

1. Greenland — 16.36
2. United States — 7.12
3. Uruguay — 4.74
4. San Marino — 4.08
5. Montenegro — 3.40
6. Argentina — 2.67
7. Finland — 2.66
8. Monaco — 2.64
9. France — 2.64
10. Venezuela — 2.50

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

This is what happens when the subject has been discussed by all those interested. It’s now a vehicle for wider political discussion; as is the tradition.

It’s about 10 posts from getting locked.

P.s I think the swiss have the highest rates of suicide by gun due to the high level of possession.

What, they don’t think it over when running to the other side of the house to get their ammo?

Just kidding, interesting stats above.

[Archie]

I'm sorry to inform you that there is almost no real American manufacturing unless you count the mil-industrial-media deep state spewing it's political bullshit on the nightly sci-fi news as "production" in which case we've never produced more. It doesn't make good fertilizer though and even if it did you can't get an American made shovel to move it and if you could you couldn't get an American worker to get off their ass and start shoveling for less than a king's ransom. So really you have nothing to thumb your nose at.

If China ever figures out how to make a decent set of potentiometers and a quality 3 way toggle switch US guitar production will be gone forever.

As you may know, I’m all for spending my life’s savings starting a manufacturing business in a country that is more interested in finance, than making things.
I’m a man (i think). Something about building things in an obsessive way, strikes deep to the core of what I believe is the male experience. It should be catered to, even if a far east country can do it cheaper. There is a greater value than purely economic.

For anyone reading this, this is not an excuse to now start talking about gender identity. Unless it’s regarding the guitar prowess of Stanly Jordan.

[DawgBone]

As you may know, I’m all for spending my life’s savings starting a manufacturing business in a country that couldn't give two cr*ps about manufacturing.

I was thinking about that when responding to your post. Your determination with regard to what you are doing is inspiring and worthy of praise especially considering how much you have to go against the grain to get anywhere with it in this current state of things. Everyone wants a part of success but few will tread the path to get that success. Better to follow your dream and fail than never to try at all. May God richly bless you in all your endeavors.

[JGinNJ]

I'm sorry to inform you that there is almost no real American manufacturing unless you count the mil-industrial-media deep state spewing it's political bullshit on the nightly sci-fi news as "production" in which case we've never produced more. It doesn't make good fertilizer though and even if it did you can't get an American made shovel to move it and if you could you couldn't get an American worker to get off their ass and start shoveling for less than a king's ransom. So really you have nothing to thumb your nose at.

If China ever figures out how to make a decent set of potentiometers and a quality 3 way toggle switch US guitar production will be gone forever.

Since I've had a lengthy career in manufacturing, particularly with automated equipment, I take exception to that blanket statement. Manufacturing is global, let China make cheap crap and expensive Apple crap.
Just to keep it guitar related, go take Martin's factory tour. Well motivated, skilled employees making a quality product.

[Litterick]

That's one step further down the rabbit hole, where we don't just look at what a company actively does, but where it's located.


Which makes it even more tricky. I've always liked Apple products. One of the many things I liked about the company is that, until recently, they didn't have any lobbyists in Washington. They have production facilities in China (and other countries), that belong to other companies, like Foxconn, which manufacture for Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Intel, Dell, Toshiba, Sony, Nintendo, Acer, Lenovo, and many others as well. Reports of horrible working conditions. Apple is actively and credibly trying to improve on that - but they're still dealing with a different company, in a different country.
Bad enough to not buy any Apple, Amazon, Lenovo products?

I confess, I own Apple computers (and a Gibson guitar made in Kalamazoo, Michigan). I would prefer to buy products made elsewhere than China, but sometimes I have no choice. I have long favoured Apple for its approach to design, so I have no alternative but to buy its Chinese-made computers. If I were to buy another guitar, happily I would have more choices.

My socks are made in New Zealand.

[m_d]

Hmm, France are usually good in international competitions. What gives?

Jokes aside, it’s all very sad.

To be fair it’s a rumour I heard in the 90’s and perfect for now spreading on the internet some 30 years later!

I could be wrong but suspect it has to do with the - manufactured, and entirely avoidable - decimation of agriculture and farmers (who frequently own guns in particular hunting guns). Low morale among the police - those not willing to play stormtrooper for Darth Vader - may be a factor too.

[m_d]

Since I've had a lengthy career in manufacturing, particularly with automated equipment, I take exception to that blanket statement. Manufacturing is global, let China make cheap crap and expensive Apple crap.
Just to keep it guitar related, go take Martin's factory tour. Well motivated, skilled employees making a quality product.

True, I bought a Martin a few months ago, and am mesmerized by its quality.

[stratology]

That Gibson, and all of its glorious guitars, is but a memory at this point.

I do own a vintage SG, either from 1967, or, more likely, 1973, depending on who you ask.

It sounds fantastic, but I would not take it out to a gig, because tuning stability is simply not good enough.
And, yes, professionally fitted, lubricated bone nut, Schaller tuners, etc.
All the things you do to ensure tuning stability. Which work well on all my other guitars.


And, another observation: this 50 year old guitar, that was well worn when I bought it second hand, looks nothing like the new 'reliced' guitars Gibson and others offer.

Not too long ago, I tried a super expensive Custom Shop LP, and was a little shocked how bad it was, compared to my old SG. But that's subjective, and I only tried one...

[stratology]

I confess, I own Apple computers (and a Gibson guitar made in Kalamazoo, Michigan). I would prefer to buy products made elsewhere than China, but sometimes I have no choice. I have long favoured Apple for its approach to design, so I have no alternative but to buy its Chinese-made computers. If I were to buy another guitar, happily I would have more choices.

My socks are made in New Zealand.

There was an interesting interview with Tim Cook some time ago, maybe in the New York Times, IIRC.

He explained that one reason that Apple manufactures in China is that there is a large pool of highly specialised manufacturing engineers. So if you need someone highly qualified for a very specific task - a frequent requirement in high tech manufacturing - there is a large pool of people to choose from in China.
Cook explained that, at the same time, it would be almost impossible to find even a single person with the same qualifications in the US.


Regarding working conditions, Apple has a dedicated 'Supplier Responsibility' webpage, where they release mission statements of how they deal with suppliers, how they make efforts to provide education opportunities for people working for suppliers, and where they publish annual 'progress reports', where they report which efforts to improve working conditions worked, and where they failed.



Talking about Apple and working conditions in China is off topic, but, on a personal note, I came to first use computers via music recording - MIDI only Cubasis on an Atari ST.

[Archie]

I could be wrong but suspect it has to do with the - manufactured, and entirely avoidable - decimation of agriculture and farmers (who frequently own guns in particular hunting guns). Low morale among the police - those not willing to play stormtrooper for Darth Vader - may be a factor too.

The alarming rate of police suicide in France is a sad state for affairs. It must be incredibly demoralising.

[stevo58]

P.s I think the swiss have the highest rates of suicide by gun due to the high level of possession.

Suicide rate by firearm - Our World in Data
check your data. The US rate(2019) is 3.5x the Swiss rate. The high level of possession is because Switzerland has (had) universal conscription, and soldiers kept their rifles at home along with 24 rounds of ammunition, stored in a separate place. My friends are all long past military age (45, I believe) and I’m not up on current laws ( I live over the border in Germany and worked in Basel for thirty years, and have many Swiss friends). Swiss military rifles are almost never used in a crime (including suicide) as there is a very strong social resistance. Doing so would mark you - beyond any legal consequences (or lethal, in the case of suicide) - as a pariah.

[bananafist]

Just to get back to guitars, for a minute, as someone else pointed out, not all neck laminations can be felt as time passes. I recently owned a 1936/7 Recording King M4, made by Gibson, with a five piece laminated neck. Back of the neck was not worn, but still as smooth as when built - and straight as a die with no truss rod. It had clearly been well played, but well looked after too. Neck was just a bit too full for my old arthriticky hands, sadly.

[stevo58]

Blasphemy? Nah, but they should move the Epiphone brand back here. Why not?

As for their classic archtops, they would ship American spruce and maple half way around the world to have people attempt to make L5s and Super 400s? Why? All the materials and knowledge are here. The instruments may be more expensive when slave labor isn't used, but that's OK. You can always get a Telecaster with an EQ pedal.

Ever hear of Northfield mandolins? Highly respected - pretty much THE hot mandolin brand right now.


Regarding laminated necks - look closely at a current D-18. The neck is two-piece. And the old NY Epiphone laminated necks are beautiful. My 1950 Devon had problems when I bought it - but the three-piece cherry/walnut neck was straight as an arrow and stable.