Which one is the real jazz guitar ?

[Cunamara]

I think that it would have been much better if Ed had played the exact same thing on his acoustic L-5C w/factory-installed JS pickup, with an appropriate set of heavier strings.

On that we must disagree 100%. Ed's Telecaster and light strings gave him a level of expressiveness, especially with longer notes, that few jazz guitarists playing on an archtop with heavy strings can match. And in Ed's case, we do have some evidence of him playing on an L5 and on an ES-175; to my ears his sound is nowhere near as interesting and his expressiveness is not as emotive as it was on the Telecaster. That was the perfect instrument for his art.

In another post, Spook410 asked "I suppose the follow on would have to be: Do you think Wes/Pass/Burrell/(very long list goes here) would have sounded better on a plank?" I have never heard Wes or Kenny Burrell play on a solidbody guitar. I have heard Joe Pass play on a solid body guitar, however, and frankly his tone sounded better on that than it did on his Ibanez archtop and sometimes on his ES-175. However, his tone on his custom Gibson, at the end of his life was better than he had at any point elsewhere in his career. That was the perfect instrument for him, IMHO. But Spook410, you are clearly not ever going to be convinced since you insist on using the pejorative term "plank" for solid body guitars. I don't think you can hear past your prejudice.

[kris]

Too bad Ed is dead. Maybe he would check the arch-top again.

[Archie]

Sounded like a lot of palm muting going on with the example posted.

[Hammertone]

Do you think this would have somehow been better on an archtop with .013 flatwounds than Tele with .010 roundwounds?

I think that it would have been much better if Ed had played the exact same thing on his acoustic L-5C w/factory-installed JS pickup, with an appropriate set of heavier strings.

I think so too... but Ed chose the guitar. He created his personal sound using mainly Tele. I really like sustain of Tele.

Actually.. yea. I do. None of my favorite jazz tones are planks so if Bickert had gone a different direction I probably would have preferred it.

On that we must disagree 100%. Ed's Telecaster and light strings gave him a level of expressiveness, especially with longer notes, that few jazz guitarists playing on an archtop with heavy strings can match. And in Ed's case, we do have some evidence of him playing on an L5 and on an ES-175; to my ears his sound is nowhere near as interesting and his expressiveness is not as emotive as it was on the Telecaster. That was the perfect instrument for his art…

Interesting view.

Ed’s intent in playing the Telecaster had nothing to do with anything other than convenience, as he told me on several occasions, in person, when I explicitly asked him about why he used his Telecaster instead of his L-5C for almost all of his gigs after a certain point.
Unlike the Tele, the L-5C was big, fragile and required some sound engineering finesse when being recorded. Unlike the Tele, it could not be thrown into the trunk of a car without a case or bag, and required even more care in the winter months. Unlike the Tele, Ed took extremely good care of his L-5C, and, today, it is still in excellent condition.

“But Spook410, you are clearly not ever going to be convinced since you insist on using the pejorative term "plank" for solid body guitars. I don't think you can hear past your prejudice.” Interesting point, sort of like suggesting “an archtop with .013 flatwounds,” which reveals a different prejudice. Note that I did not suggest that the recording of Ed would somehow would have been better with the strings you suggested, but “with an appropriate set of heavier strings,” whatever those could be. Perhaps a lovely set of .011 or .012 pure nickel wrap Pyramid or Thomastick round wounds? Just heavy enough to prevent the bridge from wiggling around and excite the top a little bit.

I agree that, given the fact that Ed used the Telecaster extensively, his choice of instrument and setup influenced his evolution as a player. I don’t think that evolution would have been significantly different if he had played his large-bodied carved archtop with floating pickup - he would still have played like himself, but the timbral quality of the recorded sound would have been substantially more interesting. As a big fan of his music, I think his Tele sound, stripped of the tonal and dynamic content that is inherent in good carved archtop guitars, diminishes what might have been an even more interesting body of recorded work.

On a lighter note, I believe that he, along with several others, is responsible for a school of guitar tone that I find unfortunate. As is often the case, a picture is worth a bunch of words:

[Tal_175]

I don’t think that evolution would have been significantly different if he had played his large-bodied carved archtop with floating pickup - he would still have played like himself, but the quality of the recorded sound would have been substantially better. As a big fan of his music, I think his Tele sound, stripped of the timbral and dynamic content that is inherent in good carved archtop guitars, diminishes what might have been an even more interesting body of recorded work.

Do you think Ed would've agreed with you that the recorded sound of his L5C would've been substantially better?

[Spook410]

.. But Spook410, you are clearly not ever going to be convinced since you insist on using the pejorative term "plank" for solid body guitars. I don't think you can hear past your prejudice.

So... I hurt your tele's feelings? Guess I should be more woke.

[Peter C]

I wouldn't personally change a thing about Ed Bickert's sound; he even got a great, big comping sound out of his "plank" strung with light gauge strings. A master. When comparing the virtues of a solid body versus an archtop, I'd be just as likely to call the latter a "box", just to reinforce the point.

Anyway, I was once at an impromptu session and had a cheapo Ibanez archtop with me, probably strung with 12s, and someone called Hit The Road Jack. I'd never played a solo on a hollow body with the amp cranked, like back in the day on Strats and Les Pauls, and was taken aback by how the sound penetrated and carried in the air, in a way I'd never experienced before. So, there's that.

PS using the term woke to get back at someone is rather perplexing to my mind.

[Tal_175]

Ironically, I think I saw another Jens video where he explains why his semi-hollows sound better than his ES 175 for the style of jazz he plays.
Also do you people really think those 5 guitars sounded the same?

[Hammertone]

Do you think Ed would've agreed with you that the recorded sound of his L5C would've been substantially better?

I don't know. I suspect he didn't care that much about it, and it was certainly his choice to make. I love his playing regardless.

[st.bede]

So... I hurt your tele's feelings? Guess I should be more woke.

I personally do not believe in de-humanizing people to justify anything. We can all throw names out. There is never a justification for it. I would rather try and listen to people. Often, there are principles that we can all agree upon. Often we disagree and are left with a discussion on Utilitarian versus Lockian principles. Then we have to try to find a solution that we are all a little happy about. However, no solutions are found through name calling. I think some people (left and right) imagine a glorious revolution… but death is never glorious. Death is about suffering. Violence is always disgusting, no matter if it justified or not.

[Spook410]

I personally do not believe in de-humanizing people to justify anything. We can all throw names out. There is never a justification for it. I would rather try and listen to people. Often, there are principles that we can all agree upon. Often we disagree and are left with a discussion on Utilitarian versus Lockian principles. Then we have to try to find a solution that we are all a little happy about. However, no solutions are found through name calling. I think some people (left and right) imagine a glorious revolution… but death is never glorious. Death is about suffering. Violence is always disgusting, no matter if it justified or not.

Not quite sure what to say to that St Bebe.. but thanks for sharing your thoughts. As for name calling.. not sure what you're referring to but in reference to earlier posts..

• 'Plank' is not a pejorative. A bit blue collar maybe but a common enough term for tele's, strat's, and their derivatives. Someone on the internet saying that it's a pejorative is both odd and certainly doesn't make it so.
• Actually, declaring 'plank' to be a pejorative is disrespectful to those who have used the term for years implying they somehow lack the intellectual wherewithal to be thoughtful and rationally analytical simply because of the vernacular they grew up with. Such microaggression is unfortunate but not uncommon in an older community like this one where the diversity can, for some, be overwhelming. So we just have to ignore it and move on as we try to build a better world of inclusion and hope. And fight global warming. And.. you know.. stuff.
• There is no such thing as 'prejudicial listening' in this context. At least at the experience level of 99% of those reading this forum. Almost everyone here owns and plays many guitars of many types and listens to all sorts of music. Although.. actually.. in truth.. I don't usually like banjos. I mean.. except for Bela Fleck who is amazing. I usually go into banjo recordings with lowered expectations. So certainly an area where I could use some personal growth.

Finally.. and to the topic without all the silliness.. archtops do not sound like solid body guitars or whatever you like to call them. They simply and factually do not. And it's OK to generally prefer the sound of one over the other for certain kinds of music.

[Cunamara]

So... I hurt your tele's feelings? Guess I should be more woke.

My Telecaster is a guitar. It doesn't have feelings. WTF?

[Cunamara]

PS using the term woke to get back at someone is rather perplexing to my mind.

Yeah, that's a thing here in the US. Americans have mostly abandoned manners.

[Stringswinger]

Yeah, that's a thing here in the US. Americans have mostly abandoned manners.

Particularly the woke. Shouting down speakers with whom you disagree is the epitome of bad manners.

[kris]

I was a long time ago at the jazz clinic with Mike Stern?
Someone asked him why he doesn't play arch-top'/hollow-body/?
I remember the question but I don't remember the answer because it was about 30 years ago.
I guess that was a difficult question... :-)

[Spook410]

I thought 'woke' was a reflection of a world view. It's an insult? Interesting. What is the right term for 'woke' affectations?

[Spook410]

I was a long time ago at the jazz clinic with Mike Stern

There is also Bill Frisell. Though he may not wish to fight the overtones with his more electronic machinations.

[Christian Miller]

Is this the mad-at-teles thread?

[kris]

Is this the mad-at-teles thread?

New thread:
Official Thread My Mad -at - My Mad

[James Haze]

What about the amp? Personally, I think the focus so damn much in just the guitar is somewhat misplaced. Your pickups (though also important) generate this tiny signal that you could actually barely hear, then the amp takes that, amplifies it to line level, adds some TONE shaping enhancements to it, and then amplifies it to bedroom or earth shaking stage volumes. It's putting in a lot of work, yet gets taken for granted far too often. Those amazing amps must really feel slighted.

[kris]

Acoustic jazz guitar... and then pickup.I really like electric sound but with a predominance of acoustic sound.
On a solid body you have only an electric sound when you connect an amp.
This is a very significant difference.You can combine with piezo and solid body....but there is no resonance box.

[Christian Miller]

If you find your tone sucks, the guitar may only be one of a number of reasons, some of which may be improved by being better at the guitar. Annoying, but true.

[kris]

If you find your tone sucks, the guitar may only be one of a number of reasons, some of which may be improved by being better at the guitar. Annoying, but true.

From what I've seen you have very good guitars-: es-175, es-335.
The dream of not one guitarist is true.

[Christian Miller]

From what I've seen you have very good guitars-: es-175, es-335.

And yet....! (Haha)

[kris]

And yet....! (Haha)

Tele-Telecaster.