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It's listed as "aged"...
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03-21-2023 01:52 PM
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Sounds like you're describing a guitarist's attitude/behavior more than a category of guitars.
Originally Posted by skiboyny
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I think they're all player's guitars...if they're played.
There's definitely "collector's guitars."
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I don't think so at all. Its just a unfortunate truth that if you play a guitar it will wear in various ways. Even if you lovingly play it, it's going to wear. The more exposure the more wear. This will ultimately affect the market value. At some point it's no longer considered collectable but a player. Originally Posted by jazzshrink
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To quote the Collings commercial I linked above (3:05): "Guitars for me are works of art first and tools second." Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So tying back to to the original theme, even Collings doesn't see itself as a maker of players' guitars. Or at least making players' instruments is secondary after making "works of art" out of finish-checking.
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No doubt! It can have the attributes of a fine collectors guitar, but if it's played enough it will fall from that category. In the case of Borys, his focus is sound and playability. I think he hits this mark very well. He's not trying to make a showpiece although they do have their own charm. He prefers the buyer be a player not a collector. Inversely Collings (which this thread was about) Is going for both. So it's up to the buyer which it will be. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Well, if he said "Tools first and works of art second", they'd have to drop the price. A bunch. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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I know of one guy who uses a B-120 as his workhorse guitar. He's always using it to play Broadway shows, jazz gigs club dates, etc... Originally Posted by skiboyny
The top by the pickguard's finish is worn down to the wood. There are dings and scratches everywhere.
That is a description of the transition to a 'player's guitar'.
He's got at least two other Borys guitars also.
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Tried so hard to get the convo off Borys
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At least it didn't devolve into another covid thread.
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Originally Posted by Guy In Lyon
" We buy 'junk' - - -we sell ' antiques. ' "
: )
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Until Vinny 1K sells his Borys, we must make this a Borys Forum. It seems to be the only logical way to deal with the problem... Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Tried so hard to get the convo off Borys
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New rule: for every Borys post (positive or negative) I’m starting a political economy of Covid thread.
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Twenty bucks says we create so much hype about that guitar that vinny sells it for a 50% gain.
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“How does Collings get away with charging a premium for this atrocious lacquer checking? I won't even get into relic vs no-relic. Even if you are into relics (I can appreciate a light relic done well), you have to admit this is terrible.” Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Tried so hard to get the convo off Borys
Perhaps because their targeted buyers are confident in Collin’s reputation of providing high quality instruments, and are willing to follow them down the dubious “relicing” path; particularly given there are no adopted standards defining legitimate versus illegitimate relicing.
AKA
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If it were really a work of art, the checking would be called 'craquelure'.
A New Zealand artist, Michael Parekowhai, made a work called Ten Guitars. He had ten guitars made for him, under his Patriot brand name. The title refers to the song by Engelbert Humperdinck, which was a singalong standard for Maori. The guitars are made to be played.
.
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Have to agree that is about as bad as it gets.
One of the guys suggested a bad knock theory but I don't buy that as the cracks are all over the place and seemingly random.
Think the finish has been plastered on way too thick without a decent interval between coats to allow the heavy coats to get to the maximum shrink state. subsequent coats shrinking over time have created stress in the finish which has caused cracks. large changes in temperature could perhaps help this to happen.
Most unusual as the normal crazing of very old finishes runs in line with the grain as shown in some of the pictures the guys posted,while this looks to go across the grain. If that was my guitar I would be most unhappy.
Thanks for posting. Is good to know what NOT to buy and I sure won't be getting one of those in a hurry if ever.. Will stick to Gibson, PRS , Guild, Taylor Gretsch, Takamini and Fender. Have had no problems with finish on any of those brands.
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Crazing can go across the grain. I have a guitar that went from cold cars to stage lights night after night with crazy checking. It still doesn't look like that mess from the first post.
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Are they really random? Most of the cracks seem to emanate from holes made in the front and back, i.e., f-holes, bridge, pickups, pickup selector, knobs, strap button on the back. Others appear to emanate from the edges of the body. If this is true, wouldn't the "hard knocks" theory seem more plausible? Originally Posted by Glenn Jennings
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That guitar finish looks like a classic problem of VOCs issues, maybe in combination with coat thickness and dry periods.
In the European Union VOCs relate to volatile organic compounds, in this particular case probably plasticizers. I'm sure there is a different term for and handling of VOCs in the US, but the problem is analog.
Just don't ask how many of EU made guitars in the last 10 or 12 years, in particular those of smaller scale makers not having easy access to surface specialists, have been affected by the VOC Solvents Emission Directive, the main policy instrument for the reduction of industrial emissions of VOCs. The bad effects are often only noticed after some time. Especially the nitro lacquer compositions have been changing every few years, and luthiers were forced to refinish the guitars in question. At this time, AFAIK, the use of just one single brand of EU-made nitro lacquer for non-reliced guitars is recommendable. Thanks to the Brexit you can still import some poison from England - after that time slot, the use of new nitro lacquer will be over here.
On solid body guitars all surface coatings make sense; beauty, smooth or cracked, is in the eye of the beholder.
Much less on acoustic instruments that shine anyway with a very modest degree of efficiency. So the question remains: why would today someone still use dope-varnish musical instruments, varnish that once was great for tensioning the linen covering of biplane wings? In an ideal world, the only acceptable tension and stresses on a guitar top would be caused by the strings, nothing else ... Players feeling attracted by the tonal qualities of vintage nitro-finished guitars, admitting frankly that the improvement could be, at least partially, result of tension relief caused by the amount of smaller or larger lacquer cracks, are hard to find.Last edited by Ol' Fret; 03-22-2023 at 04:47 PM.
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it was noted lol Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Tried so hard to get the convo off Borys
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Just me maybe but Relics are embarrasing.
- Your musician friends will know it's a "relic'd guitar" and think you're just a poser.
- Your non-musician friend will ask why did spend all that money on a new guitar that's already cracked and corroded.
Best to look around the 2nd hand shops until you find that lovely old Epiphone or Gibson which has genuine patina.
That Collins looks comical - did they put it in the freezer for a day and then took it out to stand in the blazing midday sun?
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Out of curiosity , I contacted Collings on this one ,
Hi Sol,
Thank you for sending this over!
It appears that this guitar does have our Aged Finish and Hardware.
Due to the nature of the checking process, results are unique to each instrument.
I hope this helps!
All the best.
Matt Linville
Collings Guitars, Inc.
11210 W. Hwy 290, Bldg C
Austin, TX 78737-1913
ph (512) 288-7776
www.collingsguitars.com
www.waterlooguitars.com
Matt did indeed id the s/n so it's an original Collings' aged!
S
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This is the logical end of taking the path of relic: entropy.
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Looks like a razor blade job...
I just listened to one of the newer episodes of Eric Daw's podcast (The Fret Files – Guitar Workshop Podcast) where he answers a question about ageing nitro finishes. He says it can be done to look "the old way" but it's very hard and you need to get the right stuff without additives (which seems hard to get) and then a bag of the right tricks for the finish cracks.
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