Differences between Trenier & Campellone.......

[DMgolf66]

I currently own a 17" Campellone with a floater and recently saw a comparable (in general specs) Trenier and was curious about how they compare.
With most or all things being equal on spec, is there distinguishing qualities or philosophies in their builds. I've seen a couple Trenier's that have floating PUs and 17" bodies are a little shallower (1/2") in depth than most or all of Campellone 17" floaters.

These are obviously 2 of the best/premiere builders in the world right now and was curious about where they overlap and where they differentiate on a mostly "Apple to Apple" build comparison.

Easy to tell its a "Monday at the office" kind of question.

Cheers!

[deacon Mark]

I have an 18 Campy and recently my friend was over with this 16.5 non cut Trenier. While the body styles are different sizes I can tell you that they sounded very different. The Trenier impressed me in that it had plenty of volume and power for a 16.5 inch guitar. The Campy has more bass response and to me was a warmer sounding guitar. The Trenier a bit more open in the treble and possibly what I would call lively sound.

It really is not a matter of which one was better or worse so much as a player's preference. In my case at least in this instance the Campy was a clear favorite, but both guitars as good as the get.

[bluejaybill]

One difference is that in general when you order from Mark Campellone, you choose from a set number of build styles, ie 16", 17", 18" etc, floater or built-in pickup, neck specs to your taste, and then choose one of several trim levels, like Deluxe,Special, or Cameo. This enables him to build several at a time, and to have several build batches a year.

Trenier, when I was looking into ordering from him, had a wider number of custom possibilities. I'm not sure if that's still the way he works, at one point he told me he wanted to move to a build it and then sell it approach, instead of custom orders.

Other than that, there are design philosophies that differ I'm sure, others know more about that than I do. Mark Campellone mostly uses parallel bracing like on the old Gibsons, I'm not sure what Trenier does. Last time I checked there was a pretty big price differential, with Treniers starting at a considerably higher price.

At the time, Trenier's waiting list was several years, and you had to put down a deposit. Mark doesn't require one, so I got on there first, and due to some dropouts my spot came up sooner than expected, so I jumped in for a 17" Special. After 1 1/2 years, it's breaking in nicely and the tone keeps developing. Happy camper, er, Campy-er, here!

[vinnyv1k]

Campellone’s start at a tad over $5K. Trenier’s start at $10k and it is his laminate price that he currently isn’t making.

If you want the 1960’s L-5 sound go Campellone.
If you want the D’Aquisto sound Trenier is your guy.

If fit and finish is a concern nobody can beat Campellone IMO.

[FourOnSix]

Campellone’s start at a tad over $5K. Trenier’s start at $10k and it is his laminate price that he currently isn’t making.

If you want the 1960’s L-5 sound go Campellone.
If you want the D’Aquisto sound Trenier is your guy.

If fit and finish is a concern nobody can beat Campellone IMO.

This pretty much nails it. Campellone is Gibson-like, albeit more refined in terms of fit and finish. Trenier is D'Aquisto-like in terms of the subtleness of the acoustic voice.

[Telerious]

It is fun reading all of the comments including the comparison posted of a 16 1/2 to an18 inch body size. I can only imagine though Bryant would bristle at such a comparison; un-level playing field!

I have a 2013 Trenier 17" Broadway cutaway with Walnut back and sides. My guitar, with D'Aquisto style tailpiece, is more like a New Yorker than Bryant's non-cutaway Broadway models. It is fairly warm when unamplified but trebles are indeed bright. The guitar came to me as an acoustic and after a year or so, I mounted a Vintage D'Armond. The sound I get amplified is beautiful and also beautifully warm, while retaining good clarity.

My Trenier is X-braced and I would add that Bryant seems often to fit the guitars with a broader bridge-base footprint similar to D'Aquisto. That detail coupled with the X-bracing leads me to imagine that his guitars would contrast Mark Campellone's instruments.

There's nothing like variety, especially from two wonderful builders.

David

[Stringswinger]

Do any top level, well known Jazz guitarists other than Pasquale Grasso play instruments made by either luthier?

[jorgemg1984]

Daan Kleijn plays (or used to play, I think he uses a Westville now) a Campellone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8S9H9otkgE

[NSJ]

Do any top level, well known Jazz guitarists other than Pasquale Grasso play instruments made by either luthier?

Good point. In terms of single shop, expensive luthiers, the cat whose guitars a lot of pros seem to play is Marchione guitars: Mike Moreno, Mark Whitfield, Leo Almeudo, off the top of my head. Also, of course, Sadowsky (Jimmy Bruno, Jim Hall, now, Frank Vignola, even Russell Malone).

[Mark M.]

Campellone’s start at a tad over $5K. Trenier’s start at $10k and it is his laminate price that he currently isn’t making.

If you want the 1960’s L-5 sound go Campellone.
If you want the D’Aquisto sound Trenier is your guy.

If fit and finish is a concern nobody can beat Campellone IMO.

This is close to my experience as well. I have a 17” Campellone and a 16” Trenier. Both are very responsive and each one has a great acoustic voice. The Campellone has a floating p/u and the Trenier has a built in HB. My Campy was built 6 months ago and my Trenier was built in 2011. So, they are not apples/apples in comparison. But, that said, there are distinct differences in tone. In my case, the Campy is more open with a very pronounced, full sound over the whole spectrum from bass to treble. It’s remarkable. The Trenier has a more refined, more mid-range sound that is very soulful and distinctive. I love them both. They are incredible instruments.

I should add that both are solid/carved instruments.

[DMgolf66]

Do any top level, well known Jazz guitarists other than Pasquale Grasso play instruments made by either luthier?

Will Sellenrad in NYC plays 2 or maybe 3 Treniers. I really like his playing. Very nice fellow as well.

[Mark M.]

Do any top level, well known Jazz guitarists other than Pasquale Grasso play instruments made by either luthier?

I really couldn’t care less. Both are spectacular guitars in every aspect.

[vinnyv1k]

Most of the players mentioned above did not have to pay for their Sadowsky or Trenier. They were endorsed models.
Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, and Herb Ellis got freebies too.

No big name players are buying brand new L-5’s either.
Heck Gibson no longer even makes them.

You certainly are not going on the road with a top of the line archtop.

You don’t see George Benson doing gigs with his mint D’Angelico.

This thread is about archtop comparison not what great player plays one.

IMO both Trenier and Campellone are top of the heap.

I know Mark Campellone well. He is a huge Gibson fanboy.
It is also obvious that Bryant Trenier is a huge D’Aquisto fanboy.
Both deliver big time what they love. No wrong choice.
It is a personal ear preference.

I too am a Gibson boy so the Campellone fits my sonic needs.
QAman loves a great acoustic tone so the Trenier meets his sonic needs more so then a Campellone.

Both great builders. Thank God for both of them.

[NSJ]

Most of the players mentioned above did not have to pay for their Sadowsky or Trenier. They were endorsed models.
Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, and Herb Ellis got freebies too.

No big name players are buying brand new L-5’s either.
Heck Gibson no longer even makes them.

You certainly are not going on the road with a top of the line archtop.

You don’t see George Benson doing gigs with his mint D’Angelico.

This thread is about archtop comparison not what great player plays one.

IMO both Trenier and Campellone are top of the heap.

I know Mark Campellone well. He is a huge Gibson fanboy.
It is also obvious that Bryant Trenier is a huge D’Aquisto fanboy.
Both deliver big time what they love. No wrong choice.
It is a personal ear preference.

I too am a Gibson boy so the Campellone fits my sonic needs.
QAman loves a great acoustic tone so the Trenier meets his sonic needs more so then a Campellone.

Both great builders. Thank God for both of them.

When Joe Pass would visit his cousins and his good friend, Jack Cecchini, in Chicago, he would try to pick up a lot of shit guitars and play them, for fun. That would annoy Jack, and he would say something like, “put that shit down, that has the tonal value of a god damn ukulele”. I once asked Jack about Joe’s D’A (in this case, I believe it was a a D’Aquisto). Jack merely said, “are you kidding, that guitar almost never leaves his house”.

[Woody Sound]

Most of the players mentioned above did not have to pay for their Sadowsky or Trenier. They were endorsed models.
Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, and Herb Ellis got freebies too.


You certainly are not going on the road with a top of the line archtop.

You don’t see George Benson doing gigs with his mint D’Angelico.

GB's contract with Ibanez forbids him from appearing in public with any guitar other than an Ibanez.

[Stringswinger]

One should play the guitars that inspire your playing whether it is a 300K 1959 Les Paul Standard or an Ibanez Artcore.

I ask about players who prefer a particular maker's guitar because D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Benedetto, Buscarino, Borys, Sadowsky and Marchione seem to have gotten the best players into their camp, just as Dupont and Favino have gotten the best Gypsy jazz players into their camp.

Star power adds value to a guitar, if one cares about that sort of thing and that is why Strats sell for more than Jaguars, 335's sell for more than 355's, Les Paul Standards sell for more than Les Paul Customs etc.

One of the finest sounding archtops that I ever played was made by a California luthier named Michael Lewis. His guitars were absurdly expensive and the one I played had a headstock repair and I offered 7K for it. And I was outbid. Had I gotten that guitar, I am unsure if my investment would be solid, but I would have enjoyed owning it. Who plays a Lewis guitar? I would have.

Enjoy your Campellones and Treniers guys. Those makers seem to get a lot of love around here. But there are a lot of great guitars to choose from these days. After all, it is the golden age of luthiery, is it not?

[Rograt]

One should play the guitars that inspire your playing whether it is a 300K 1959 Les Paul Standard or an Ibanez Artcore.

……….,

Star power adds value to a guitar, if one cares about that sort of thing and that is why Strats sell for more than Jaguars, 335's sell for more than 355's, Les Paul Standards sell for more than Les Paul Customs etc.

………,,

Enjoy your Campellones and Treniers guys. Those makers seem to get a lot of love around here. But there are a lot of great guitars to choose from these days. After all, it is the golden age of luthiery, is it not?

The last guitar I bought is an Ibanez JS2450 (a rock guitar). I love that guitar. The shape, balance, neck profile, pickups, Edge whammy, etc. When I plug it in I just want to close my eyes and shred away.

[jim777]

The last guitar I bought is an Ibanez JS2450 (a rock guitar). I love that guitar. The shape, balance, neck profile, pickups, Edge whammy, etc. When I plug it in I just want to close my eyes and shred away.

The JS line are great guitars, no doubt. When I play out with my 'dad band', I always bring my white Jem and either a very similar prestige RG2750 or my AS200. I have been playing Ibanez guitars out since I traded my Les Paul custom for an AR300 in '81. Their high end instruments are fantastic guitars for playing out, just great sounding and super reliable.

That said, I play my VDA or my Emerald acoustic when I'm fiddling around at home

[iim7V7IM7]

We are most fortunate to live in a time where there are wealth of fine archtop builders, particularly when you consider shifts in the popularity of jazz guitar and the inherent high cost and skill for an artisan to create an archtop guitar. Many of the names that started to become popular in the 1990s are reaching the end of their times at their benches (e.g., builders like Steve Andersen, John Buscarino, Mark Campellone, Bill Comins, Steve Grimes, John Monteleone and Tom Ribbecke). Mark is well into his 60s and Bryant is a decade + younger at this point with a bit more time ahead of him at his bench. There are a number of younger builders ranging in their 20s to their 40s out their as well to take the art of archtop making into the future.

As others have said, Mark does his own thing. Anyone looking for a 1950s or 1960s L5esque guitar, I would always recommend Mark. He will customize their guitar to your aesthetic and ergonomic liking with aplomb. Bryant also as others have said has modeled himself very much after the late Jimmy D'Aquisto, where he likes to evolve and experiment vs. reproducing the last guitar that he made. Both of these luthiers are great at what they do, so it depends on what the player is looking for. I have also had the pleasure to work with both John Buscarino and Bill Comins both who had roots in the Bob Benedetto school of archtop making but have both evolved and found their own paths at their benches.

Regarding which pros play whose guitars, I believe that is confounded by their business model and in some cases their location.

Some builders and companies focus on getting their guitars in the hands of great players. Unfortunately, guitarists that play 3 chords for 3,000 people tend to have greater financial resources than guitarists who play 3,000 chords to 3 people. This happens in some cases for free or at significant discount. It is part of their business model. For a luthier who builds 10-15 guitars a year this is a major investment. For a small company like a Benedetto or Sadowsky, it is a bit easier than for a solo artisan. Some companies are located in a place where jazz guitarists live and play. Additionally, taking a fine archtop to an urban gig in a small club seems to be a risk fewer and fewer are willing to take. Laminate and solid body guitars together with lightweight/portable, high power solid state amps seem to be the tools of the trade.

Honestly, who plays what means very little about the quality of the instrument. It reflects a number of things beyond that.

[Archie]

We are most fortunate to live in a time where there are wealth of fine archtop builders, particularly when you consider shifts in the popularity of jazz guitar and the inherent high cost and skill for an artisan to create an archtop guitar. Many of the names that started to become popular in the 1990s are reaching the end of their times at their benches (e.g., builders like Steve Andersen, John Buscarino, Mark Campellone, Bill Comins, Steve Grimes, John Monteleone and Tom Ribbecke). Mark is well into his 60s and Bryant is a decade + younger at this point with a bit more time ahead of him at his bench. There are a number of younger builders ranging in their 20s to their 40s out their as well to take the art of archtop making into the future.

As others have said, Mark does his own thing. Anyone looking for a 1950s or 1960s L5esque guitar, I would always recommend Mark. He will customize their guitar to your aesthetic and ergonomic liking with aplomb. Bryant also as others have said has modeled himself very much after the late Jimmy D'Aquisto, where he likes to evolve and experiment vs. reproducing the last guitar that he made. Both of these luthiers are great at what they do, so it depends on what the player is looking for. I have also had the pleasure to work with both John Buscarino and Bill Comins both who had roots in the Bob Benedetto school of archtop making but have both evolved and found their own paths at their benches.

Regarding which pros play whose guitars, I believe that is confounded by their business model and in some cases their location.

Some builders and companies focus on getting their guitars in the hands of great players. Unfortunately, guitarists that play 3 chords for 3,000 people tend to have greater financial resources than guitarists who play 3,000 chords to 3 people. This happens in some cases for free or at significant discount. It is part of their business model. For a luthier who builds 10-15 guitars a year this is a major investment. For a small company like a Benedetto or Sadowsky, it is a bit easier than for a solo artisan. Some companies are located in a place where jazz guitarists live and play. Additionally, taking a fine archtop to an urban gig in a small club seems to be a risk fewer and fewer are willing to take. Laminate and solid body guitars together with lightweight/portable, high power solid state amps seem to be the tools of the trade.

Honestly, who plays what means very little about the quality of the instrument. It reflects a number of things beyond that.

A testament to that being Julian Lage who plays a solid body copy of a Gretsch (for now). A few modern youtube stars play Frank Bro’s and Yamaha’s.
Although this is getting off topic.

I am aware that quite a number of highly regarded builders, have all produced ‘tone plus’ guitars. A term coined by G E Smith to mean ‘finely built, hand made archtops by highly regarded luthiers, that do not have a pleasing tone; stiff and bright.

I’ve played many good high end luthier guitars but never a great one.
I have however yet to play the very top shelf. Parker, D’aquisto, Monteleone, Benedetto.

[gitman]

You certainly are not going on the road with a top of the line archtop. ????
Peter Bernstein > Zeidler one-of-a-kind , Julian Lage > Manzer Lamtop, Anthony Wilson > Monteleone Flyer, countless classical guitarists with their €/$ 10.000 plus instruments ....
countless bassists , violinists , .....

Most of the players mentioned above did not have to pay for their Sadowsky or Trenier. They were endorsed models.
Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, and Herb Ellis got freebies too.

No big name players are buying brand new L-5’s either.
Heck Gibson no longer even makes them.

You certainly are not going on the road with a top of the line archtop.
You don’t see George Benson doing gigs with his mint D’Angelico.

This thread is about archtop comparison not what great player plays one.

IMO both Trenier and Campellone are top of the heap.

I know Mark Campellone well. He is a huge Gibson fanboy.
It is also obvious that Bryant Trenier is a huge D’Aquisto fanboy.
Both deliver big time what they love. No wrong choice.
It is a personal ear preference.

I too am a Gibson boy so the Campellone fits my sonic needs.
QAman loves a great acoustic tone so the Trenier meets his sonic needs more so then a Campellone.

Both great builders. Thank God for both of them.

[skykomishone]

My 17" acoustic, cutaway, carved spruce top Trenier has is noticeably lighter and smaller than my 17" Campellone.

Therefore, I would say Mark's guitar has more substance. That is a quantitative comparison. Sound wise, it's the same. Mark's guitar is more substantial. I enjoy playing them both very much. Beyond that, asking me to make an apples to apples comparison is like asking me to describe differences between Jonathan and Golden delicious.
Oh, and the tailpiece on the Trenier is mainly ebony. On the Campellone it's metal with ebony on it, and ditto on what the others have said.

[zephyrregent]

[QUOTE=Stringswinger;1253640]One should play the guitars that inspire your playing whether it is a 300K 1959 Les Paul Standard or an Ibanez Artcore.

One of the finest sounding archtops that I ever played was made by a California luthier named Michael Lewis. His guitars were absurdly expensive and the one I played had a headstock repair and I offered 7K for it. And I was outbid. Had I gotten that guitar, I am unsure if my investment would be solid, but I would have enjoyed owning it. Who plays a Lewis guitar? I would have.


Was that the Michael Lewis D'Angelico I used to see advertised for $20,000, seemingly forever?

[Stringswinger]

[QUOTE=zephyrregent;1253813]

One should play the guitars that inspire your playing whether it is a 300K 1959 Les Paul Standard or an Ibanez Artcore.

One of the finest sounding archtops that I ever played was made by a California luthier named Michael Lewis. His guitars were absurdly expensive and the one I played had a headstock repair and I offered 7K for it. And I was outbid. Had I gotten that guitar, I am unsure if my investment would be solid, but I would have enjoyed owning it. Who plays a Lewis guitar? I would have.


Was that the Michael Lewis D'Angelico I used to see advertised for $20,000, seemingly forever?

Nope, a different one. What saddens me is that after I was outbid and thought about it, I waited a bit and contacted the buyer (who paid $7500) to see if he had tired of the Lewis and would sell it to me. He had already traded it to another guitar collector and would not give me that fellow's contact info.. Ya snooze, ya lose. It is OK, it is not like I am hurting for fine guitars to play.

[Irishmuso]

Regarding which pros play whose guitars, I believe that is confounded by their business model and in some cases their location.

Jimmy Raney played a handmade Hofner/Zoller model - even the pickup was hand-wound - of which only 4 were produced. Pat Metheny has one. Whatever happended to Jimmy's guitar and how much might it be worth?