-
Hi all.
Took some footage from the guitar auction yesterday. The main video is still uploading.
Here’s some closeup footage of a quirky guitar. Had a loud yet soft acoustic voice.
I would have been more than happy to steal it but I think it ended up going for around £1k
I thought the neck was quarter sawn but Sam thinks it is laminated. Either that or he was refering to the neck heel.
Last edited by Archie; 03-08-2023 at 06:27 PM.
-
03-08-2023 05:33 PM
-
Where do all these guitars come from ?
-
The multi-laminate neck on the Hoyer HR copy is typical of all sorts of German guitars made in the 1960s and beyond. Innovative, patented and a very dumb idea from a marketing point of view. Not my cup of tea, but easy enough to replace on an otherwise nice instrument.
Hammer price on the HR was £1,300, plus costs.
"Buyer’s Premium on all lots is 22% plus VAT (26.4% inclusive of VAT)"
So, £1,586, + shipping, + whatever tax and duties to be paid based on destination.
The pound is in terrible shape against the USD, so, delivered to a US destination, the total cost would probably be somewhere around USD 2,250. In my experience, US Customs is quite loose with collecting taxes or duties on items like this.
Perhaps one of our EU members could chime in on landed cost to Europe?
Anyone here buy it?
Last edited by Hammertone; 03-10-2023 at 03:33 PM.
-
For some reason Elenor Rigby started playing in my head.
Originally Posted by va3ux
-
Right. I got my figures a little off. Too many lots in my head.
That guitar would have cost about $250 including insurance and duties so $2,100 door to door.
Eu would have cost + 20%vat and £50 shipping.Last edited by Archie; 03-09-2023 at 11:31 AM.
-
Willy Hopf, back then owner of the Hopf company, got a patent for these multilaminated 'propeller' guitar necks in the early 1960s. Between the mid 1960s and early 1970s the neck blanks were produced in the Framus factory and also sold to smaller guitar companies in Germany like Hoyer, even to some small-scale luthiers like Gustav Glassl.
On archtop guitars the propeller guitar necks are not my cup of tea either, but so are non-laminated one-piece necks. Anyway, capable makers like Glassl were able to transform propeller neck blanks into some stiff and really nice feeling, sounding and looking pieces, like here on a 1970s 18" Hopf "Craftsman" by Glassl, sort of a rival to the Gibson Super 400C (Florentine):
The Hoyer 3061 Howard Robert guitars were made with Arnold Hoyer's (died 1967) son Walter A. Hoyer being at the helm. Walter's main interest was to produce semi-acoustic and solid-body guitars; of course, that was time-conditioned as well.
I know that some will disagree, but generally, IMO, if you're looking for a electro-acoustic full-hollow-body archtop guitar, you'd be better off with a guitar made under the guidance of Arnold. Nevertheless, Walter Hoyer, who was known among insiders to have been a little rogue, had still been the employer of a couple of talented guitar makers up to the 1980s.
The video above of the auction guitar shows some "funny" details. Above all, these red-colored "bridge_under_dampers"
(the remains of former piezos?):
Or that whirly spinning neck heel, a stack of propeller pieces:
-
In terms of hand feel, I found the neck to be fine.
It wasn’t covered in ridges and didn’t feel too much different.
Hard to say though since I wasn’t focusing on those details.
Thanks for sharing the info. Was an interesting read.
-
In the 70s I bought second hand a big Super400 style Hopf craftsman with this kind of neck.
Good sounding guitar.
-
Rich, thank you SO MUCH for your in-person help scouting this guitar. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
I started out thinking the same thing. I went through all the rigamarole to register, entered a low-ball bid and withdrew it. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
I'm not scouting full-depth guitars right now and the plywood neck is . . . well, the word "repulsive" might be too strong. Let's go with "cringe-worthy."
I don't get it. Your factory is located in a part of the world where premium northern-European maple tonewood literally grows on trees. You have sourced a perfectly sound quarter-sawn solid German spruce top and an attractive, 70s-nice instrument-quality solid quarter-sawn maple back. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
That's it! Let's make the neck out of plywood! Ooh, ooh, ooh, I know . . . we'll cut a big honkin' hole in the top and sink the neck extension into it, instead of gluing it to the top! Yeah, that's it! And then they still wind up with a clanking ski jump at the end!
Maestro, it is easy for you. But that's because you are Hammer and you have the World's Coolest Basement. Originally Posted by Hammertone
When I see a neck that needs replacing I have got to just walk on, as here.
Congrats to the high bidder, whoever they may be.
-
Great, and yes, I agree! In my subjective book Glassl (who also made the better part of archtop guitars for Hopf) was the No. 2 of German archtop guitar making. It has been coming down that Glassl himself talked about the biggest part of his own guitars as "Gebrauchsgitarren" (commodity guitars). He was a very experienced and innovative "box-maker", but, initially, didn't care too much about the guitar necks which he bought in from several suppliers - including Artur Lang. So it could happen that you find a Glassl made archtop with a really great or a soso neck. The situation, IMO, got slowly better in the early 1960s. Originally Posted by JFranck
In the 70s I bought second hand a big Super400 style Hopf craftsman with this kind of neck.
Good sounding guitar.
Glassl's carved archtops can come up to almost any competitors, but really shining are his budget fully laminated instruments. After a good set-up, many of them can be used as acoustic archtop guitars, and many models were originally shipped as acoustic models without pickup. Of course, most of them were modified later by the players who usually added floating pickups or the typical clumsy and heavy Schaller pickup plates.
The best thing is, these laminated Glassls can still be found dead cheap on the private market (often < $500), if you can identify them in the wonderfully chaotic crowd of German made axes, and they can even smoke a number of expensive world-renowned laminated guitars. Today, some of us are lucky that these guitars never got the wider attention of players (the exception proves... ) because the heroes used US models.
But I think we better stop here. This post is about a later period, when globally most guitars (Japan, Europe) had been modeled after Gibson and Fender guitars, like this Hoyer 3061.
-
Sam what did you put on it? I thought you would be around the $500 mark. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
I didn't bid on it because for one, it started higher than I was prepared to go. Not because the guitar isn't worth it, it was good and highly interesting guitar. It's just I had other priorities and I would have felt bad bidding against you.
-
Something like that. I took it down because it just didn't feel right. It was like, "Man, if I win will I feel happy or not taking this thing out of the case?" Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
That was it, right there.
I wonder whether the buyer was a Howard Roberts Model nerd, a German guitar fiend or just somebody who got smitten by it.
-
Nowt so queer as folk, as we say.
That guy in the video was a die hard Hoyer fan. He kept telling me how good the bodies were.
They are out there, lurking in the auction rooms lol
-
IMO, the Walter Hoyer L-4CES/HR guitars are worth being worked on to undo the shitty bits, optimize the good bits, and so forth. IMO, the various ones at the auction were excellent deals for buyers. Swap out the stupid neck shaft for real wood, re-use the headstock overlay and board, remove the garbage poly finish and replace it with a real finish, and so forth.
Regarding Glassl, yeah, Gus had his moments. Here are a couple of nice carved-top ones, built after he stopped copying Lang and started copying Gibson. The one on the right is getting a replacement neck soon enough, using the original headstock overlay and fretboard. The one on the left has been sold. Both @17 1/2" wide.
-
The offending neck, on the left. I suppose if it wasn't such a skinny little wanker neck, I might reconsider, but such is not the case. The guitar itself sounds ... glorious:
-
There were so many things bothersome here, that to call it a "Howard Roberts" is just wrong. Ok it had an oval sound hole. Is that the only criteria? No floating pickup? The pickup looks like it was cut into the top by the new guy at the factory. The cutaway was shaped different. That heel! It sounded thin and twangy when he strummed it. Like Sam said, a waste of a nice top and back. Cheap out on everything else. Another case of you get what you pay for and sometimes not even that.
-
Howard Roberts Model nerd? Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
I think you are projecting a little bit here, Sam. lol
'
-
Actually the guitar sounded deep and warm, much like a good sounding hofner. That’s the only reason why I said to Sam it’s worth a steal, if it can be stolen. Originally Posted by Easy2grasp
The buzzing on the low e and the iphone didn't help do it any justice.
That being said I agree with your other points entirely.
-
Thank-You for the very, very interesting video.
In February I have done the registration to the 8 - 9 March 2023 Guitar Auction at Gardiner Houlgate.
My very first experience with the world of the auctions.
Of the 700+ guitars for sale I was interested to the Greco LS-120, a very rare 1988 MIJ solid body in “superb conditions” (36:50 in the video) and as we know with a very affordable price if compared to the “real deal”, a vintage Gibson L-5S.
In Europe the price of a Gibson L-5S is rarely around 6K euros and more often is in the 7 - 8.000 euros range.
So the auction house's estimate of the Greco LS-120 (£700 - 1.000) in my opinion it is correct.
At my request, a few days before the auction, I obtained some close-up photos of the Greco LS-120: a really nice guitar in very good conditions.
If you use Google you can find a single video where you can hear and see a Greco LS-120. I'll tell you what: it's the same instrument (same serial number) that was being auctioned off!
For my problems with the English language I don’t fully understand the “Absentee Bid” and the “Autobid (+1)” options, so I’ve waited the day of the auction.
Naturally I did the calculations and to have this guitar in Italy I would have had to pay too high a price for me.
When an item is purchased in the UK and then shipped to Italy, I have to pay the italian VAT and custom duties, that means 22% + 4% on the hammer price + 26.4% + the shipping costs.
For example for a £1.000 hammer price, the price I'll pay in the end will be £1.745 (1.971 euros….that is almost double of the hammer price).
On march 8 I have followed the Auction from the beginning and after a few dozen lots I understood two things:
1) Even the ugliest guitars are sold
2) The hammer price is almost always within or slightly above the estimated price
Obviously my £580 bid for the Greco LS-120 was immediately outbid and the guitar sold for £1.050 + 26.4%.
It was an interesting experience and I'm curious to see which guitars will be in the next auctions.
Mr. Luke Hobbs’, tireless auctioneer, work is truly admirable.....and I also learned some English
Ettore Quenda.it - Jazz Guitar - Chitarra Jazz
-
I was going to bid on the Greco too. It was quite a nice guitar but I have other priorities. Originally Posted by equenda
Thank-You for the very, very interesting video.
In February I have done the registration to the 8 - 9 March 2023 Guitar Auction at Gardiner Houlgate.
My very first experience with the world of the auctions.
Of the 700+ guitars for sale I was interested to the Greco LS-120, a very rare 1988 MIJ solid body in “superb conditions” (36:50 in the video) and as we know with a very affordable price if compared to the “real deal”, a vintage Gibson L-5S.
In Europe the price of a Gibson L-5S is rarely around 6K euros and more often is in the 7 - 8.000 euros range.
So the auction house's estimate of the Greco LS-120 (£700 - 1.000) in my opinion it is correct.
At my request, a few days before the auction, I obtained some close-up photos of the Greco LS-120: a really nice guitar in very good conditions.
If you use Google you can find a single video where you can hear and see a Greco LS-120. I'll tell you what: it's the same instrument (same serial number) that was being auctioned off!
For my problems with the English language I don’t fully understand the “Absentee Bid” and the “Autobid (+1)” options, so I’ve waited the day of the auction.
Naturally I did the calculations and to have this guitar in Italy I would have had to pay too high a price for me.
When an item is purchased in the UK and then shipped to Italy, I have to pay the italian VAT and custom duties, that means 22% + 4% on the hammer price + 26.4% + the shipping costs.
For example for a £1.000 hammer price, the price I'll pay in the end will be £1.745 (1.971 euros….that is almost double of the hammer price).
On march 8 I have followed the Auction from the beginning and after a few dozen lots I understood two things:
1) Even the ugliest guitars are sold
2) The hammer price is almost always within or slightly above the estimated price
Obviously my £580 bid for the Greco LS-120 was immediately outbid and the guitar sold for £1.050 + 26.4%.
It was an interesting experience and I'm curious to see which guitars will be in the next auctions.
Mr. Luke Hobbs’, tireless auctioneer, work is truly admirable.....and I also learned some English
Ettore Quenda.it - Jazz Guitar - Chitarra Jazz
There was quite a chip in the back of the beck though, if it makes you feel any better?
I was going to post my video the day before the auction but it took too long to upload to youtube.
I offer a service where if you are interested in a lot, I can check the guitar out for you, including the truss rod. I only require a small tip for my time. So if you have lots you need investigating further from a independent person, let me known in advance and we’ll work something out.
Usually the necks on the guitars are not good and probably 75% of the reason I don’t buy.
All of the Japanese copies there went for reasonable money but none of them really got me excited in person. There was money to be made there though.
Luke is a great guy.
-
I've found a "cache"page on Reverb.com:
Greco LS-120 1988 - Cherry Sunburst- Gibson L-5S copy. MIJ | Reverb
This guitar is not currently for sale and I believe it has only recently been resold.
At this point I wonder:
- was the guitar bought on March 8, 2023 by a collector (or shop) who now (rightly) intends to earn £1,000?
…..or does this LS-120 have serious technical problems (truss-rod, bad sound, excessive weight, etc.)?
Ettore
-
Ettore -- Originally Posted by equenda
The Reverb seller is a shop or a person who specializes in buying and reselling Japanese guitars. I wouldn't assume that the Greco "L-5S" had any problem other than those built-in to the model. (They were pretty heavy, being all maple.)
The Reverb seller's sales-pitch is, "Greco's carbon copy of a Gibson L5-S. The only noticeable difference between the two being about 3 grand!"
That is an exaggeration.
A careful look at the top shows that the beautiful flames are a very thin veneer.
Notice how the flames are book-matched right in the center of the top?
See how the lines in the maple directly underneath the flamey top go across the center-line with no interruption?
Veneer -- the wood with the flames is almost paper-thin.
There's nothing evil about this. Veneering is an ancient craft in woodworking.
But with the authentic Gibson L-5S what you see -- usually three pieces of flamey maple -- is what you get, and with the Greco the pretty stuff is only skin-deep.
-
Thank-You for your input. I've learned something new. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
Ettore --
The Reverb seller is a shop or a person who specializes in buying and reselling Japanese guitars. I wouldn't assume that the Greco "L-5S" had any problem other than those built-in to the model. (They were pretty heavy, being all maple.)
The Reverb seller's sales-pitch is, "Greco's carbon copy of a Gibson L5-S. The only noticeable difference between the two being about 3 grand!"
That is an exaggeration.
A careful look at the top shows that the beautiful flames are a very thin veneer.
Notice how the flames are book-matched right in the center of the top?
See how the lines in the maple directly underneath the flamey top go across the center-line with no interruption?
Veneer -- the wood with the flames is almost paper-thin.
There's nothing evil about this. Veneering is an ancient craft in woodworking.
But with the authentic Gibson L-5S what you see -- usually three pieces of flamey maple -- is what you get, and with the Greco the pretty stuff is only skin-deep.
However, I believe that a difference in thickness of 5/10 millimeters in the veneered wood glued to the top of the guitar cannot drastically change the sound of a solid-body guitar.
As far as I can see the body shape, thickness, ebony ftetboard, headstock shape, tailpiece, etc. look identical to the real Gibson L-5S.
The famous Gibson Fret Binding is missing, the tuning machines are different, the pick-ups/post/cables/capacitors are certainly different and I don't know if the truss-rod is different. Same for the paintwork.
I don't think anyone has ever put on a table a Greco L-120 together with a Gibson L-5S,
and I don't think anyone has tried them TOGETHER with the same amp.
I have a belief that the sound shouldn't be much different.....but of course I could be wrong.
Today the guitar is back for sale on Reverb. Perhaps it is a paradox but at the moment it is more difficult to find a Greco LS-120 than a Gibson L-5S.
Ettore
Reply With Quote
Anyone not use rest strokes?
Yesterday, 09:53 PM in Guitar Technique