Wes' superior sound in approx. 1967-68

**sgcim** · 03-07-2023, 07:08 PM

I've long since given up my imbecilic idea that Wes' superior sound on the late records was solely due to the better recording studios and production techniques.Those things might have had some bearing on the subject, but after hearing him play live in that documentary and you tube videos, those factors are not applicable anymore.
So what guitar, strings, amps, pickups was he using in that period that he wasn't using before?

**Bebop Tom** · 03-07-2023, 07:22 PM

The live videos probably had the solid state Standel exclusively. It was a dry sounding amp. The late studio recordings probably had either an Ampeg Gemini II or a Fender Super Reverb and great studio reverb. The guitars were the same (Gibson L5s with one or two humbuckers).

**wintermoon** · 03-07-2023, 08:57 PM

Well, we know he didn't switch thumbs

**Stringswinger** · 03-07-2023, 09:04 PM

While I am sure that Wes' L-5's and Standel amp contributed mightily to his stellar tone, the fact is that Wes probably would have sounded great playing a Thinline Telecaster through a Super Reverb.

**sgcim** · 03-07-2023, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

While I am sure that Wes' L-5's and Standel amp contributed mightily to his stellar tone, the fact is that Wes probably would have sounded great playing a Thinline Telecaster through a Super Reverb.

There was always something I didn't like about his sound (NOT HIS PLAYING!!!) on all the Riverside albums.It was either too thin, too undefined, not enough presence.
Then he got the full sound that I loved on the Verve and A&M records( A Day in The LIfe). I thought it was the studio they used, but he sounded like that live, too. Wasn't he using a 175 on some of the early stuff?

**sgcim** · 03-07-2023, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bebop Tom

The live videos probably had the solid state Standel exclusively. It was a dry sounding amp. The late studio recordings probably had either an Ampeg Gemini II or a Fender Super Reverb and great studio reverb. The guitars were the same (Gibson L5s with one or two humbuckers).

Yeah, it was the studio reverb. But he sounded the same live, too.

**wintermoon** · 03-08-2023, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

There was always something I didn't like about his sound (NOT HIS PLAYING!!!) on all the Riverside albums.It was either too thin, too undefined, not enough presence.
Then he got the full sound that I loved on the Verve and A&M records( A Day in The LIfe). I thought it was the studio they used, but he sounded like that live, too. Wasn't he using a 175 on some of the early stuff?

I think he borrowed Kenny Burrell's L-7 for his first organ trio Lp in '59 and used a 175 on the next one in '60, The Incredible Jazz Guitar (the tone is noticeably thin on that one) Then when he switched to an L-5 the guitar sounds fatter. But yeah when he began recording for Verve and then A&M it got even fuller sounding. Imo Riverside recordings don't sound as good as Blue Note or Prestige in general. I don't think it was just the amp he used. (Do we know if he even used an amp by then or straight into the board?)
Most of the live videos seem to be pretty consistent but they were recorded in Europe who had the edge on the US in recording (especially if your name wasn't Van Gelder) and even filming. If you watch old videos of jazz bands filmed in the US, many are poor quality and they don't even know where to point the cameras. The European cameramen seem to know the tunes/arrangements which makes for much better videos.

**JCat** · 03-08-2023, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

I've long since given up my imbecilic idea that Wes' superior sound on the late records was solely due to the better recording studios and production techniques.Those things might have had some bearing on the subject, but after hearing him play live in that documentary and you tube videos, those factors are not applicable anymore.
So what guitar, strings, amps, pickups was he using in that period that he wasn't using before?

A live concert on television, or a Youtube clip, is a recording involving microphones, mixers, equalizers, studio compressors and reverb effects. (I've long since given up my imbecilic idea that a "live" record is an accurate reconstruction of what actually went down).

I personally prefer Wes' sound on "the incredible jazz guitar" recorded in 1960; ES-175 with a single P-90 through a Tweed Deluxe. Perfect. But the late records are also nice of course. Wes is Wes.

**daveg** · 03-08-2023, 04:50 AM

I think it was at the last of the Riverside recordings that the method of recording Wes in the studio was defined. It is a mixture of routing his guitar directly into the mixer and also by mic'ing his amp. From where I was sitting directly in front of his Standel at Ronnie Scott's my recollection is that he sounded like he did on "Boss Guitar".

DG

**wintermoon** · 03-08-2023, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by daveg

I think it was at the last of the Riverside recordings that the method of recording Wes in the studio was defined. It is a mixture of routing his guitar directly into the mixer and also by mic'ing his amp. From where I was sitting directly in front of his Standel at Ronnie Scott's my recollection is that he sounded like he did on "Boss Guitar".

DG

Hard to beat an in person experience Dave!
Like our own member nevershouldhavesoldit you guys are incredibly fortunate to have witnessed the man.
I've seen many of my favorite players live but Wes would've been the ultimate. After so many years of listening to his recordings, once the videos became available it was exactly as I heard/pictured him in my mind. But live in person is another level.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 03-08-2023, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

Hard to beat an in person experience Dave!
Like our own member nevershouldhavesoldit you guys are incredibly fortunate to have witnessed the man.
I've seen many of my favorite players live but Wes would've been the ultimate. After so many years of listening to his recordings, once the videos became available it was exactly as I heard/pictured him in my mind. But live in person is another level.

And to be honest, I was so blown away by being there with him that I abandoned my usual attention to detail. I either didn’t even look at his amp or didn’t care, because I have no recollection of what it was. Our little table was right next to him, so I got to talk to him off and on throughout the evening. I asked why he went to the L5 & he just said something to the effect that he liked the way it felt and sounded. He asked what I played & I told him I got a used 175 as soon as my dealer found one I could afford after I got The Incredible Jazz Guitar album. He wasn’t much of a talker, but he was very nice and seemed happy that he’d inspired a college kid.

**Fred Archtop** · 03-08-2023, 09:58 AM

You guys have seen Wes in person!!!!

Immense respect!

**Stringswinger** · 03-08-2023, 12:16 PM

By the time I discovered jazz (1974), Wes was gone, so I never got to see him play live. But once I heard him, it was as though he had given me a lantern and showed me the path.

I am forever grateful.

**deacon Mark** · 03-08-2023, 02:02 PM

I grew up listening to Joe Pass and Wes for sure but lately in the past 2 years all I have done is listen to Wes. He commanded the guitar, the tune, and the group. It seems as if he really did not just get a 32 bar solo, he told a 32 bar tale of movement and breathing. I keep listening to various cuts and take of Satin Doll he did in the studio, my question is how much did he work out in advance and there is nothing wrong with that either.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 03-08-2023, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by deacon Mark

I grew up listening to Joe Pass and Wes for sure but lately in the past 2 years all I have done is listen to Wes. He commanded the guitar, the tune, and the group. It seems as if he really did not just get a 32 bar solo, he told a 32 bar tale of movement and breathing. I keep listening to various cuts and take of Satin Doll he did in the studio, my question is how much did he work out in advance and there is nothing wrong with that either.

According to someone in the documentary, Wes had an eidetic memory. Whether this is true or not has apparently never been determined. But he did seem to store every lick he'd ever played or heard in his head, pulling them out ad lib and dropping them into spontaneous, improvised solos that were so cohesive that they sounded like he'd written them beforehand.

The players whose solos I love the most all have this ability to make spontaneous improvisation sound like they're reading it from a chart in their heads. Paul Desmond and Art Pepper were two other beautifully lyrical soloists who had this gift.

**skykomishone** · 03-08-2023, 02:27 PM

One of my impressions of Wes is that he had some kind of connection to his hands that ran through his heart! We often discuss eye, hand, and ear coordination, and teaching the brain to move the fingers, but with Wes there was something more going on!
In the videos you can see the love and the soul in his being.

**John A.** · 03-08-2023, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

I think he borrowed Kenny Burrell's L-7 for his first organ trio Lp in '59 and used a 175 on the next one in '60, The Incredible Jazz Guitar (the tone is noticeably thin on that one) Then when he switched to an L-5 the guitar sounds fatter. But yeah when he began recording for Verve and then A&M it got even fuller sounding. Imo Riverside recordings don't sound as good as Blue Note or Prestige in general. I don't think it was just the amp he used. (Do we know if he even used an amp by then or straight into the board?)
Most of the live videos seem to be pretty consistent but they were recorded in Europe who had the edge on the US in recording (especially if your name wasn't Van Gelder) and even filming. If you watch old videos of jazz bands filmed in the US, many are poor quality and they don't even know where to point the cameras. The European cameramen seem to know the tunes/arrangements which makes for much better videos.

This is the way I perceive it, also. Incredible Jazz Guitar in particular is not a great recording. At least the versions/masterings I've heard seem muffled and distant and don't have a lot of dynamics (and a lot of amp crunch on the treble end). Sounds to me more like recording a room with acoustic issues than close-micing individual instruments. In contrast, I'm listening to Far Wes (Montgomeryland) right now, and it sounds a lot better (although there's some some guitar-amp distortion); recorded in '58, but a different label, producer, and studio. Parenthetically, Monk's electric sound is uncannily upright-like and sits in the mix better than pretty much any electric bass on a jazz record ever.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-08-2023, 04:32 PM

Could it be microphones? The Shure SM series was initiated in 1959 and tested for several years. I think it started being widely used in studios by the mid-60's.

**sgcim** · 03-08-2023, 04:53 PM

The best live sound he ever got was at the Newport Jazz Festival in 1967 July 3rd.
His chords sounded like an orchestra!
Music > Wes Montgomery at Wolfgang's

**Gitfiddler** · 03-08-2023, 05:30 PM

Maybe I missed it, but could it be that Wes sounded better in his later years due in part to his own efforts?

Every player evolves, tweaks their style, approach and overall technique. To my ears Wes continued to sound better and better over the years. Of course updated recording studios, microphones, producers, guitar strings, amplifiers, etc. also improved over time. But Wes was such a master of his art! Videos of him show how comfortable, relaxed and joyful as he played complex jazz lines, few of us can ever master.

I think we should give full credit to Mr. Montgomery for how great he sounded...throughout his career.

**NSJ** · 03-08-2023, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by sgcim

The best live sound he ever got was at the Newport Jazz Festival in 1967 July 3rd.
His chords sounded like an orchestra!
Music > Wes Montgomery at Wolfgang's

That only has 30 second excerpts:

Here’s the entire audio on YT: