The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I'm not a luthier. I have watched Gibson and Heritage make laminates. Wood is cheaper and there is much less time creating the box.

    I have not seen any CNC on Heritage carved archtops. Many of the old ones were tap tuned, maybe all of them. The ones designated as tap tuned on the order were usually done by Aaron Cowles. These were all hand built.

    Here is a video of Aaron at work. He was a master. The Heritage founders used the same techniques but only put the extra efforts into the higher price archtops.

    wood is cheaper but the machining costs can be higher and longer.

    if you make a typical guild style 5 ply where each ply by is 1mm (on average) you have to veneer, sand thickness, glue abd press each piece.

    With a typical carved top alla Gibson, they don’t tune tops or backs, although they state the braces are tuned, so you can put your split billet on cnc and carve it to final thickness.

    Aaron says in the video that the majority of the carving is done on a router and that his tuning, although he doesn’t give much example of him tap tuning, more final thicknessing, which still maybe better done on a cnc, depending on your level of CAD skill as it will be more uniform in thicknessing and would allow you to have a potentially better surface to do any final tapping, tone bar shaping and tuning once the body has been assembled.

  4. #28

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    I'll probably upset a few people, but I never bought into the PR narrative that they were made by the original gibson luthiers. When gibson closed up shop, they made offers to folks they wanted to keep. Some accepted, some didn't and some didn't get any offers. The idea that all the best luthiers stuck around and started making heritage is just folklore.

    Also, for many years the heritage necks were not finished very well. My repairman told me he was having to plane and refret way more heritage fingerboards than any other higher end brand. Eventually, heritage bought a plek machine and things improved but I often thought that it was a bandaid. The fingerboard should be level before fretting.

    A friend of mine visited the factory and told me they were taking bridges out of a stew-mac box and slapping them on archtops without shaping the bottom...

    Quality control in general was very iffy. I bought a heritage golden eagle and when I flipped it around to the back, the "center" seam was off by a 1/2" or so.

    I'm reminded of the reason PRS doesn't sell factory seconds. They have a policy that when something gets made incorrectly, it is sawn in 1/2 so it doesn't make it out of the shop and poison their reputation.

    I contacted heritage a couple times to find out if I could get an eagle classic with 3 3/8 rim depth and was told no because they didn't have bending jigs with the necessary depth. I remember thinking, "Really??? After all these years, they haven't invested in alternative jigs???"

    And when I asked them if they could make a 575 with a plywood top, I was told that heritage is solid maple and solid maple is better. I tried explaining that Joe Pass' "Joy Spring" recorded on a '60s plywood 175 was a classic tone and that it wasn't a matter of better or best but they didn't seem interested. Odd since they make several plywood semis and archtops.

    At some point, they did get their act together and I've owned a few Eagle Classics that were on par with the most expensive Gibsons but even used, they are no longer the greatest bargain and you always have to budget a fingerboard planing/refret if you don't get return privileges.

  5. #29

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    I have a D'Angelico Replica made by two of the Heritage founders/owners (JP Moat and Marv Lamb. All four owners signed the label) it was part of the D'Angelico II project, a licensed enterprise run by Marty Turman a CPA/guitar dealer/guitar collector. It is a superb guitar, as fine sounding and playing as any guitar that I have played (And I have played Benedettos, Buscarinos, D'Angelicos etc.).

    But there are some (correctable) flaws. Like Gibson before them (and to this day), IMO, a Heritage guitar needs to be judged on it's individual merits. Some are superb, some are not and few will have the attention to detail that you get with luthiers like Mark Campellone, John Buscarino or Shelley Park.

    My Heritage DA replica sure is a pretty thing.....Heritage and Gibson Settle-carmel-valley-wedding-gig-jpg

  6. #30
    1992 ghost built Gretsch Eldorado 18 inch signed by the old team

    Heritage and Gibson Settle-96ebed15-9d8e-42fd-8b07-4a49eae5eb77-jpegHeritage and Gibson Settle-af755d26-86fd-49d5-a732-26bb9de37dd4-jpeg

  7. #31

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    There is no quicker way to get in trouble than to talk shop about guitars.

    It turns out that some of Gibson's finest did stay behind in Kalamazoo. JP Moats did the wood sourcing for Gibson and did the same for Heritage. Pete Moreno continued to do Gibson repairs for Gibson for about two decades when Gibson relocated. He drove his truck to Nashville frequently, at least monthly, toting guitars back and forth to his workshop in Kalamazoo. Aaron Cowles also remained in Kalamazoo. Marv Lamb was one of the Gibson tap tuners but stayed in Kalamazoo. Gibson offered to move JP and Marv for sure. I never asked the rest. Maudie Moore stayed in Kalamazoo but continued to engrave for Gibson. She declined moving. Maudie Moore | NAMM.org

    My first post on this thread spoke to the flaws in some of the instruments in the first 20 years or so. You can fairly cast blame on them for that. I'm not making excuses but it may help to understand that the four owners were mortgaged up to their assess and faced considerable head winds. These include a flood, a fire, unexpected building expenses, and several lawsuits from Gibson. These four owners were factory workers for Gibson until they bought the factory. They had to train workers to build guitars when money was tight. Pete Moreno and Aaron Cowles did work with them, and they're no slouches.

    During the Elvis climb and the Beatles rise to fame, Gibson produced up to 400 guitars a day. The workers said that any wood with strings on it would sell. Many believe the Norlin era was another Gibson low point. When Gibson relocated they had their troubles and I've owned some dogs from Nashville and Memphis. So I'd say Gibson had its problems as well.

    Did Heritage make 3 3/8" depth guitars? Rarely. They did a few but drew the line at 3 1/4". I don't know why, but that was a hard stop for them. The 3 1/4" depth still took more time than the 3". I think Patrick got the last 3 1/4" deep one.

    Let's move on to laminate vs carved instruments. Carving an archtop well takes much more time and more expensive wood than a laminate. Aaron said that routing takes about an hour but the carving can take a full day. Even if it were only a few hours, that's a significant difference. I can share another observation. In the Gibson days, those who did carve the better archtops were not pressured much for productivity. Hutch, Fuller, Lamb, Moats and Cowles each did it slightly differently and they all respected each other. I heard this from Aaron Cowles and Pete Moreno. My impression is that the L-5s and Super 400s were not as carefully carved because they had hardware on the top. The JS, Kalamazoo Awards, and the Citations were carefully done. Aaron took the F5s home to work on.

    As a reality check it is easy to find information on laminate vs carved acoustics. Here is just one.

    Advantages of solid wood vs laminateAs the price gets higher, many companies will also make the back and sides solid wood, and now the entire body is considered solid. You will never find a guitar with a solid back and sides and laminate top. That would be like putting WalMart-brand tires on a Porsche. Nothing wrong with WalMart's private label tires, you just aren't going to find them on a high end sports car. So if that nice Gibson J45 of yours boasts all solid wood, that means the entire guitar body is made from solid pieces of wood, none are veneered or layered. But now we are talking thousands of dollars usually. There is really only one advantage to solid wood guitar bodies – they are better and louder in acoustic tone.

    Are the lower quality ones sent overseas? In the 1980s Asia was getting the best Gibsons, according to Jay Wolfe, and Jay was a Gibson dealer. That led to him switching to Heritage. Did he get good Heritages? Yes, because anything less than 100% he sent back.

    Fortunately for all of us, the government doesn't control guitar access and you can get whatever you can afford. I certainly have more than my share of non-Kalamazoo guitars.

    The sentiment in Kalamazoo toward the old Gibson and Heritage is still alive.



    Now I'll gratuitously show off three Heritage ghost build 18" guitars. I can't complain about anything about them.

    Heritage and Gibson Settle-51554140163_64a408a9a7_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51554824445_5e6f3eb23c_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51211625391_cc1a9373a9_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51118481856_0fe87a0e04_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51705149000_e6323f78bc_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51704936414_b5fe8382be_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51114578228_80d1f4f30f_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51115905357_55c7d14868_c-jpg


    Attached Images Attached Images Heritage and Gibson Settle-51553907911_15e9b0cb1a_c-jpg 

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    There is no quicker way to get in trouble than to talk shop about guitars.

    It turns out that some of Gibson's finest did stay behind in Kalamazoo. JP Moats did the wood sourcing for Gibson and did the same for Heritage. Pete Moreno continued to do Gibson repairs for Gibson for about two decades when Gibson relocated. He drove his truck to Nashville frequently, at least monthly, toting guitars back and forth to his workshop in Kalamazoo. Aaron Cowles also remained in Kalamazoo. Marv Lamb was one of the Gibson tap tuners but stayed in Kalamazoo. Gibson offered to move JP and Marv for sure. I never asked the rest. Maudie Moore stayed in Kalamazoo but continued to engrave for Gibson. She declined moving. Maudie Moore | NAMM.org

    My first post on this thread spoke to the flaws in some of the instruments in the first 20 years or so. You can fairly cast blame on them for that. I'm not making excuses but it may help to understand that the four owners were mortgaged up to their assess and faced considerable head winds. These include a flood, a fire, unexpected building expenses, and several lawsuits from Gibson. These four owners were factory workers for Gibson until they bought the factory. They had to train workers to build guitars when money was tight. Pete Moreno and Aaron Cowles did work with them, and they're no slouches.

    During the Elvis climb and the Beatles rise to fame, Gibson produced up to 400 guitars a day. The workers said that any wood with strings on it would sell. Many believe the Norlin era was another Gibson low point. When Gibson relocated they had their troubles and I've owned some dogs from Nashville and Memphis. So I'd say Gibson had its problems as well.

    Did Heritage make 3 3/8" depth guitars? Rarely. They did a few but drew the line at 3 1/4". I don't know why, but that was a hard stop for them. The 3 1/4" depth still took more time than the 3". I think Patrick got the last 3 1/4" deep one.

    Let's move on to laminate vs carved instruments. Carving an archtop well takes much more time and more expensive wood than a laminate. Aaron said that routing takes about an hour but the carving can take a full day. Even if it were only a few hours, that's a significant difference. I can share another observation. In the Gibson days, those who did carve the better archtops were not pressured much for productivity. Hutch, Fuller, Lamb, Moats and Cowles each did it slightly differently and they all respected each other. I heard this from Aaron Cowles and Pete Moreno. My impression is that the L-5s and Super 400s were not as carefully carved because they had hardware on the top. The JS, Kalamazoo Awards, and the Citations were carefully done. Aaron took the F5s home to work on.

    As a reality check it is easy to find information on laminate vs carved acoustics. Here is just one.

    Advantages of solid wood vs laminateAs the price gets higher, many companies will also make the back and sides solid wood, and now the entire body is considered solid. You will never find a guitar with a solid back and sides and laminate top. That would be like putting WalMart-brand tires on a Porsche. Nothing wrong with WalMart's private label tires, you just aren't going to find them on a high end sports car. So if that nice Gibson J45 of yours boasts all solid wood, that means the entire guitar body is made from solid pieces of wood, none are veneered or layered. But now we are talking thousands of dollars usually. There is really only one advantage to solid wood guitar bodies – they are better and louder in acoustic tone.

    Are the lower quality ones sent overseas? In the 1980s Asia was getting the best Gibsons, according to Jay Wolfe, and Jay was a Gibson dealer. That led to him switching to Heritage. Did he get good Heritages? Yes, because anything less than 100% he sent back.

    Fortunately for all of us, the government doesn't control guitar access and you can get whatever you can afford. I certainly have more than my share of non-Kalamazoo guitars.

    The sentiment in Kalamazoo toward the old Gibson and Heritage is still alive.



    Now I'll gratuitously show off three Heritage ghost build 18" guitars. I can't complain about anything about them.

    Heritage and Gibson Settle-51554140163_64a408a9a7_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51554824445_5e6f3eb23c_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51211625391_cc1a9373a9_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51118481856_0fe87a0e04_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51705149000_e6323f78bc_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51704936414_b5fe8382be_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51114578228_80d1f4f30f_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51115905357_55c7d14868_c-jpg


    I’m not sure he said carving the tops took all day, I think he implied carving and bracing, took all day. A small detail if true but braces are difficult and time consuming to fit.

    He did say only citations and awards were tuned which makes sense being they are the pinnacle the Gibson range.

    In general laminating is more expensive to set up, involves more heavy machinery and power and can take longer to produce.
    Down the line when up and running costs can be recouped but if you want to make an exceptionally high quality laminate then you will make them from scratch, which is a more labour and machine involved process, than carving a solid top out on a router.

    It has long been a suspicion of dealers in tin pan alley that Gibson send their B stock outside the US. This coming from one of the biggest Gibson importers to the Uk and being especially true of their acoustics. I can’t speak for asia only the Uk but entire guitars were returned or simply turned into firewood. Although this likely happens in the US.

    I had the chance to return my Heritage but decided to keep it, in spite of the quality control issues. I doubt the top is tuned. It very much reminds me of a typical Gibson carved top. No real noticeable shape or recurve to it.
    I kept it because it sounds exactly like you would want an electric, acoustic archtop to sound, which is what a Johnny Smith is, despite it having floating pickups.
    My Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith, is an acoustic archtop and is totally different to the Heritage and Gibson versions.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

    My Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith, is an acoustic archtop and is totally different to the Heritage and Gibson versions.
    I can agree on that. There were less than 20 made as I recall. I got one with Johnny's signature on the headstock. The scale length was 25 5/8ths", isn't it? It's a beauty.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I'm not a luthier. I have watched Gibson and Heritage make laminates. Wood is cheaper and there is much less time creating the box.

    I have not seen any CNC on Heritage carved archtops. Many of the old ones were tap tuned, maybe all of them. The ones designated as tap tuned on the order were usually done by Aaron Cowles. These were all hand built.

    Here is a video of Aaron at work. He was a master. The Heritage founders used the same techniques but only put the extra efforts into the higher price archtops.

    Great to see this Aaron Cowles video - thanks for posting it - very interesting. From what I understand, Aaron was instrumental (pun intended - lol) in developing the design and construction of Gibson's Citation, and for that (not to mention his Unity archtops) he certainly earns my respect!

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I can agree on that. There were less than 20 made as I recall. I got one with Johnny's signature on the headstock. The scale length was 25 5/8ths", isn't it? It's a beauty.
    Marty it’s a thing of beauty. I love the re/curve, the wood package etc..

    Mine does not have Johnny’s sig so you’re a lucky guy.

    Out of all my carved tops, past and present, the Campellone and the Guild Benedtto JS have the best carved plates.
    Benedetto did well training the builders and designing the guitar.
    Sure there are things I would change but then it wouldn't be what it is.

  12. #36

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    Behind Marty, I must have owned some 30 Heritage archtop's. 8 SE's, 7 Sweet 16's, 7 GE's, a 555, a 535, a SKB (twice), a Heritage Eldog, 2 575's, a few I can't recall...

    But in all that time, I never once owned a bad one. Hmm, that's a lot of luck.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    There is no quicker way to get in trouble than to talk shop about guitars.

    It turns out that some of Gibson's finest did stay behind in Kalamazoo. JP Moats did the wood sourcing for Gibson and did the same for Heritage. Pete Moreno continued to do Gibson repairs for Gibson for about two decades when Gibson relocated. He drove his truck to Nashville frequently, at least monthly, toting guitars back and forth to his workshop in Kalamazoo. Aaron Cowles also remained in Kalamazoo. Marv Lamb was one of the Gibson tap tuners but stayed in Kalamazoo. Gibson offered to move JP and Marv for sure. I never asked the rest. Maudie Moore stayed in Kalamazoo but continued to engrave for Gibson. She declined moving. Maudie Moore | NAMM.org

    My first post on this thread spoke to the flaws in some of the instruments in the first 20 years or so. You can fairly cast blame on them for that. I'm not making excuses but it may help to understand that the four owners were mortgaged up to their assess and faced considerable head winds. These include a flood, a fire, unexpected building expenses, and several lawsuits from Gibson. These four owners were factory workers for Gibson until they bought the factory. They had to train workers to build guitars when money was tight. Pete Moreno and Aaron Cowles did work with them, and they're no slouches.

    During the Elvis climb and the Beatles rise to fame, Gibson produced up to 400 guitars a day. The workers said that any wood with strings on it would sell. Many believe the Norlin era was another Gibson low point. When Gibson relocated they had their troubles and I've owned some dogs from Nashville and Memphis. So I'd say Gibson had its problems as well.

    Did Heritage make 3 3/8" depth guitars? Rarely. They did a few but drew the line at 3 1/4". I don't know why, but that was a hard stop for them. The 3 1/4" depth still took more time than the 3". I think Patrick got the last 3 1/4" deep one.

    Let's move on to laminate vs carved instruments. Carving an archtop well takes much more time and more expensive wood than a laminate. Aaron said that routing takes about an hour but the carving can take a full day. Even if it were only a few hours, that's a significant difference. I can share another observation. In the Gibson days, those who did carve the better archtops were not pressured much for productivity. Hutch, Fuller, Lamb, Moats and Cowles each did it slightly differently and they all respected each other. I heard this from Aaron Cowles and Pete Moreno. My impression is that the L-5s and Super 400s were not as carefully carved because they had hardware on the top. The JS, Kalamazoo Awards, and the Citations were carefully done. Aaron took the F5s home to work on.

    As a reality check it is easy to find information on laminate vs carved acoustics. Here is just one.

    Advantages of solid wood vs laminateAs the price gets higher, many companies will also make the back and sides solid wood, and now the entire body is considered solid. You will never find a guitar with a solid back and sides and laminate top. That would be like putting WalMart-brand tires on a Porsche. Nothing wrong with WalMart's private label tires, you just aren't going to find them on a high end sports car. So if that nice Gibson J45 of yours boasts all solid wood, that means the entire guitar body is made from solid pieces of wood, none are veneered or layered. But now we are talking thousands of dollars usually. There is really only one advantage to solid wood guitar bodies – they are better and louder in acoustic tone.

    Are the lower quality ones sent overseas? In the 1980s Asia was getting the best Gibsons, according to Jay Wolfe, and Jay was a Gibson dealer. That led to him switching to Heritage. Did he get good Heritages? Yes, because anything less than 100% he sent back.

    Fortunately for all of us, the government doesn't control guitar access and you can get whatever you can afford. I certainly have more than my share of non-Kalamazoo guitars.

    The sentiment in Kalamazoo toward the old Gibson and Heritage is still alive.



    Now I'll gratuitously show off three Heritage ghost build 18" guitars. I can't complain about anything about them.

    Heritage and Gibson Settle-51554140163_64a408a9a7_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51554824445_5e6f3eb23c_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51211625391_cc1a9373a9_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51118481856_0fe87a0e04_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51705149000_e6323f78bc_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51704936414_b5fe8382be_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51114578228_80d1f4f30f_c-jpgHeritage and Gibson Settle-51115905357_55c7d14868_c-jpg


    I will try to make glamour shots of these instruments when it's warm out.

    On the question of "tap tuning", it depends on what you mean. Wilbur Fuller did tune to a note, at least on the Kalamazoo Awards. Marv Lamb, JP Moats, and Aaron Cowles simply tapped to resonance. The Heritage built Gretsches were carved and sanded that way. One of my Heritage Johnny Smiths was also tuned that way and one was not.

  14. #38
    those ghost built Gretsch Eldorados are the best. I love mine.

    BigMike

  15. #39

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    My Heritage Ghost Built D'angelico New Yorker is amazing. I got it 6 months ago from MG and really it had not been played so still a bit stiff in sound. Now after months I have at least 220 hours of playing on it and it has really changed. It now is louder and more open some of the high end of the neck has tamed a bit too. It was a very bright sounding guitar and still bright but noticeably more open and focus in the middle of the neck. To break it in I of coursed played it but specifically i put on tracks and played percussive Freddie Green 4 beat rhythm for long periods of time.

    I agree with the tap tuning of to a resonance rather than a specific note. Bill Hollenbeck and Barker never tuned to a specific note because then the guitar could have wolf tones or overemphasize that note. They always carved with the idea that the top needs to be most responsive and flexible in the right places yet have strength and be sturdy. The braces were always tune and rounded off, not flat like I see on most bracing.

  16. #40

    I was the original owner of that heritage ghost built the Angelico New Yorker. That was the last one Heritage made number 40. And it literally was new old stock that had never been played or even displayed. And the wood they used on it is so beautiful my goodness I would stack it up right against that Gibson citation I had from 2002.
    You have yourself a real beautiful guitar there young man.

    BigMike