The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Today Jay Wolfe posted a letter released by Heritage Guitars on his Heritage Guitars Appreciation Fb Page see below copy

    what say ye folks ??

    Heritage and Gibson Settle-73412ae2-4688-4001-a64f-1e569685fee5-jpeg

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    There is this forum called The Heritage Owners Club. It's been around for about 20 years, and I've been a member a long time. This announcement shown above had recently been placed on the Heritage Guitar website and then copied to the HOC forum. I posted a long reply and now paste it here:

    They lost me here. Everything was fine until the "over 30 years, known for its attention to detail and quality". I would go along with beautiful. The wood sourcing was really good. The concepts also were excellent (maybe not Little One). But for a long time detailed work ranged from perfect to out of specs. The quality now seems excellent.


    I've known a number of people who worked at Heritage in the lean years and who stayed until better paying work opened up elsewhere. Some of them filed frets, put on hardware, masked for stingers, did routing, binding scraping, and soldering. They were decent laborers but not committed craftsmen, and some said they were under time pressure.


    If we are to be honest, it was common in the earlier years to have tuners not lined up, filing marks on the fretboard (often abundantly), stingers off center, binding not fully scraped, and sloppy soldering. I've had several guitars, very good guitars, that I had Pete Moreno straighten the tuners because they were weirdly rotating in a few of them. I had him recut the routing on a Super Eagle because the pickup routes were cut at an angle compared to the fretboard.


    Ren Wall was telling me one day at Heritage that he would inspect the Jay Wolfe rack of guitars with a close eye because of the high rejection rate by Jay. I saw some of the rejects with Jay's comments on why he was sending them back.


    I don't think it is disloyal to speak the truth. Heritage has come a long way in terms of great consistency. Having said all of this, all of my Heritages are from the earlier days. They are among the most beautiful instruments out there. The archtops equal or best Gibson and Guild from any era.
    So I'm posting this knowing some will take offense. Those who were around in the first few decades will recall the growing pains Heritage had. Yes, it is true they made some flawless instruments, many of them, during that era. But it is deceptive messaging to imply that Heritage was known in the earlier years for attention to detail. It was better known for the shape of its headstock, no long tenon, great value, and traits of being handmade (in other words minor flaws). To pretend otherwise negates the efforts of the older HOC members to support Heritage in its early years.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Heritage today seems more like Fender, Gibson, and G&L. The quality is good and consistent. The willingness to customize at a drop of the hat is gone. To me, it is less interesting. But if you want to buy a new guitar on line, you can pretty well tell how it will be when you unpack the box. It would be like ordering a Gibson 335 or LP Standard. For most, that's what we want.

    Here is a copy of my second post on the HOC thread.

    The story of Heritage is for many of us a journey. The original company owners were not sophisticated businessmen and marketers. I have the sense that Gibson saw them as no threat and sold them the factory and much of its contents. Decades later, Heritage is taking market share away from Gibson. Of course almost everyone involved in the decision to sell 225 Parsons to them is retired or dead.
    Heritage broke it's own rules back in the day and did a lot of one-offs without heavy fees. They were wild men (and a few women).












  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Thanks Marty!

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    {F}or a long time detailed work ranged from perfect to out of specs . . . . But it is deceptive messaging to imply that Heritage was known in the earlier years for attention to detail. It was better known for the shape of its headstock, no long tenon, great value, and traits of being handmade (in other words minor flaws).
    But that has been the story of Gibson since its founding: "Just ship it, Ed." It was true after the shareholders pitched Orville. It was true in the 1920s and it sure was true in the Depression. It was true in the 50s: Reliable sources show that in the mid-1950s Gibson was averaging 5,000 LP Juniors / Special / TVs per year. Today each one is a prize, but back then half of them were below average.


    We like to think of Tadeo Gomez hand-rolling every Tele headstock or wizened masters hand-scalloping braces at CF Martin, but the simple truth is that almost no-one in those buildings could single-handedly build an entire instrument. "Finish it up, lad. Somebody's waiting upstairs to get paid for that guitar."

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    I have never owned one, and only played a couple. Every one I've seen--mostly in the last decade, since no place I visited was a dealer prior to then--has looked beautiful and flawless at least at first glance.

    Since I got my last 175, I doubt I will ever own one, but who knows? Maybe one will drop into my lap someday?

    Anybody want to speculate on the terms of the settlement?

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

    Anybody want to speculate on the terms of the settlement?
    Could be some subtle changes to trade dress that Heritage agreed to? Hard to say. I guess if it was that we'll see it in future releases.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I ordered a 555 that came with a neck like a sideways banana. At the middle of the neck, the high E was just about off the frets. When I sent it back, they very rudely told me I didn't know what I was talking about.
    Last edited by Woody Sound; 01-31-2023 at 02:00 PM.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    Decades later, Heritage is taking market share away from Gibson.
    I don't get this. Gibson doesn't even seem to WANT to sell archtops.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    I don't get this. Gibson doesn't even seem to WANT to sell archtops.
    Heritage is not focusing on them either. It's a small part of their output.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    I ordered a 555 that came with a neck like a sideways banana. At the middle of the neck, the high E was just about off the frets. When I sent it back, they very rudely told me I didn't know what I was talking about. I lost ALL and ANY respect for those guys.
    I've not had an experience that bad from Heritage. I did have a 335 that was badly twisted.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    I for one, am just glad this version of 'Gibson vs. Other Guitar Builders' is over. As much as they've paid lawyers over the years, Gibson could have invested in improving their products as well as their brand. That is exactly what Heritage did after they were purchased by BandLab. They went back to building quality guitars.

    Unfortunately, for some of the fans of the marque, Heritage downsized their product line, and increased prices for the remaining offerings. The good news is that the former spotty QC and poor marketing has benefited from the Singapore based investment group. Heritage also hired former Gibson Custom Shop wizard, Edwin Wilson, taking Heritage's Custom Shop to another level. As an owner of both Heritage and Gibson guitars, I wish both guitar companies great success. I just wish they would both increase their archtop products.


  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Speaking about their archtop, I reached out to Heritage about procuring one with a few specifics I had in mind. The response back was very swift but..... "The Custom Shop is currently on Hiatus while we update the program. We expect it to be back soon though we don't have a firm date. If you'd like to have this guitar made, let us know and we'll reach out once it's back to discuss the build features and generate a quote." I'll probably holler back in a few months to check on the progress. I wonder if they were waiting on the settlement???

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    My experience with Heritage is really only with their carved top jazz guitars from when they first started. In general I have found them to be very good possible at times they cut corners with cheaper parts and a little less attention. Then like Gibson in the 1990's they really got much better. I think when they got the Johnny Smith guitar that made them think a bit more about QC. I owned an acoustic Super Eagle Blond and it was a great guitar. I sold it but like many things I probably should have keep it.

    I got a 2001 Johnny Smith Heritage and it perfect with reqard to QC. The other expeience is my Heritage Ghost built D'angelico New Yorker. That to me has been the finest copy of any D'angelico copy's I have encountered. I have encountered all of them with the exception of Michael Lewis. I understand his were great. Heritage supposedly had a 1960 New Yorker to go by in some respects. It is a smoking guitar and QC is perfect.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    No slight to any of the others, but these two in particular...just wow!

    Heritage and Gibson Settle-51552598147_c2d78441b9_c-jpg-4053b20200df49a37e0c4e0ba8656ac6-jpg

    Heritage and Gibson Settle-50464963831_baac4653ec_c-jpg-57f909b495015fad6dadbd06ea7e0996-jpg

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Heritage likely will build their H-575 and Eagle Classic as their carved archtops. Maybe there will be some exceptional larger ones.

    It does cost more to build a carved archtop than a laminate and the skills are at another level. The market demand is not very high.

    Ten years ago you could have specified whatever your heart desired and they would have been receptive, including the neck carve. Some of us would be present during the neck carve to make sure it was right.

  18. #17
    I think both gibson and heritage have decided to be lifestyle companies. They will continue to make their Les Paul and 335 type guitars.
    If you have a decent heritage of gibson archtop in your possession you should probably hold onto it because they won't be making anything like that anymore.
    Both companies just want to sell your T-shirts and get you to come to their hard rock hotel/café/casino complexes.


    Last edited by Crm114; 01-31-2023 at 12:11 PM.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Yeah, I can definitely say my 575 isn't going anywhere.

    Still the best guitar I've ever owned...and I sure as hell can't afford a new one!

  20. #19
    I think everybody remembers the big blowout of Gibson instruments supposedly used ones that CME had back in 2017.
    I think gibson already knew what it was doing unload and all those instruments guys had a chance to grab whatever Gibson had and most of them needed some kind of little find polishing or something but they were blowing them out getting ready to be the new improved Gibson quote unquote.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    I'd love to have a play of an older Heritage archtop one day. I did try a new Heritage Eagle Classic, it was a nice guitar but not amazing.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    I've played a couple from friends and they were very much in the vibe of Gibson, great guitars.

    Didn't the new owners of Heritage (Bandlab) fire most of the old builders when they got hold of the company?

  23. #22
    that is a very sensitive topic to discuss with anybody that's connected with anybody at heritage. Because BandLab brought in their own theory on how to make guitars and it involves so much CNC work. Then they told the old guys at heritage they were used to doing things the old way that it wasn't gonna be like that anymore and they had to do it the BandLab way or it was the highway. And eventually a lot of people just did not want to do with the new way it wasn't the way they knew. Marty could probably speak to you even more about it because he was right up there right in Kalamazoo.

    I have a number of heritage is that were made in the late 80s and the early 90s what I think of as the Golden Era
    What heritage would do special things for a customer. They weren't really business men focused on the bottom line they were builders that were living their passion.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Anybody want to speculate on the terms of the settlement?
    Dismissed with prejudice: 'the Parties hereby jointly stipulate to the dismissal of all claims and counterclaims by the Parties against one another, with prejudice, and with each party bearing its own attorneys’ fees and costs.'

    Gibson had accused Heritage of breaching their previous agreement. Heritage responded by accusing Gibson of anticompetitive actions. Three years on, they have agreed to stop fighting and never to fight again over this issue.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    Heritage likely will build their H-575 and Eagle Classic as their carved archtops. Maybe there will be some exceptional larger ones.

    It does cost more to build a carved archtop than a laminate and the skills are at another level. The market demand is not very high.

    Ten years ago you could have specified whatever your heart desired and they would have been receptive, including the neck carve. Some of us would be present during the neck carve to make sure it was right.
    I’m not convinced building a carved top is harder than building a fine laminate. The lengths, expense and time I have gone through, to produce a fine laminate (well the best frankly) would boggle your mind.
    We’re talking 10’s of K.

    Throwing a block of spruce on the cnc and flipping it over seems a breeze in comparison and much, much cheaper.

    For what it’s worth, I have a Heritage ‘The Rose’ and it’s the worst made guitar I’ve ever seen. The build quality is appalling. I think the Americans have always shipped their *b stock overseas.

    On the other hand, it’s one of, if not the best carved, electric Arcthop I’ve played to date.
    Just don’t look inside lol

    It’s always been my cheeky assumption that some of the old boys at Heritage, may or may not have enjoyed drinking on the job.
    And if they were I’d like to say,

    Cheers!

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    I'm not a luthier. I have watched Gibson and Heritage make laminates. Wood is cheaper and there is much less time creating the box.

    I have not seen any CNC on Heritage carved archtops. Many of the old ones were tap tuned, maybe all of them. The ones designated as tap tuned on the order were usually done by Aaron Cowles. These were all hand built.

    Here is a video of Aaron at work. He was a master. The Heritage founders used the same techniques but only put the extra efforts into the higher price archtops.

    Last edited by Marty Grass; 01-31-2023 at 10:35 PM.