Fender 64 Deluxe Reverb vs Henriksen / DV Mark Jazz etc

[Christian Miller]

You can get Jazz apples

I like them even though I am not a fan of things called Jazz that aren’t jazz

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is one of the many helix jazz tones I have found. I quite like it. And it blows away the fractal for bass amp tones.

Can the Helix do a Polytone-type sound? This thing checks a lot of boxes.

[Woody Sound]

I love apples.

But I really enjoy certain apples over others.
A Macoun, in season is just the best thing ever.
But I still love enjoy a waxy Braeburn from the grocery store, delicious.
There are lots of great apples out there that all taste good.

I've been getting into the Honey Crisp lately. They're down to $2.99/lb around here. If not, I'll take a simple Gala.

[jzucker]

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like the real deal!

Yeah, i like it as much as the real deal. It's not quite 100% there but if I run it through a real guitar cab (that was a direct recording), it's darn hard to hear a diff. The reverb is probably a bigger diff than the amp...

[jzucker]

Can the Helix do a Polytone-type sound? This thing checks a lot of boxes.

Yes it can. It has a really good roland JC120 and the Aguilar bass amp along with some high end roll off can sound very similar to a polytone.

[jazzkritter]

So about 15 years ago I set out to modify a Princeton Reverb AA763 into a ‘perfect’ jazz amp.
Experimented quite a bit, and ended up with the following mods. (BUT… its a tube amp, and its never going to sound like a Polytone!)
Power Supply: bigger capacity trans, larger capacity capacitors
Output trans: Found the Deluxe OT provided more headroom, warmed up the sound.
Tone Stack: as someone mentioned the tone stack is where you can really get some change. I set up a test rig that let me plug in various cap ratings, and found a combination that I thought mellowed the little beastie nicely.
Also, I disconnected the vibrato and added a mid tone control.
Speaker: at the time, I used an Eminence Delta Pro 12”, a reinforcement speaker not a guitar speaker. Now, it has the Celestion Neo SB300 (?) which is quite nice.

All in all, since the trans are both Mercury Magnetic, the freakin thing weights a lot. Need to weigh it but im afraid to.

But in the end, its a Fender Princeton Reverb with some tonal mellowing. It will never be a Polytone.

jk

[unknownguitarplayer]

Apologies for a dumb and somewhat OT question but there have been a few mentions of using 2 amps, e.g. Polytone and Princeton. What's the best way to do that? Do you use additional hardware (stereo pedal) or just connect them directly? What's the best way to connect them directly. I remember doing that many years ago, but it quite susceptible to ground loops.

[Stringswinger]

I use a TC Electronics Stereo pedal to run my Princeton along with my Henriksen once in a great while. It makes a great blended sound.

[Gitfiddler]

So about 15 years ago I set out to modify a Princeton Reverb AA763 into a ‘perfect’ jazz amp.
Experimented quite a bit, and ended up with the following mods. (BUT… its a tube amp, and its never going to sound like a Polytone!)
Power Supply: bigger capacity trans, larger capacity capacitors
Output trans: Found the Deluxe OT provided more headroom, warmed up the sound.
Tone Stack: as someone mentioned the tone stack is where you can really get some change. I set up a test rig that let me plug in various cap ratings, and found a combination that I thought mellowed the little beastie nicely.
Also, I disconnected the vibrato and added a mid tone control.
Speaker: at the time, I used an Eminence Delta Pro 12”, a reinforcement speaker not a guitar speaker. Now, it has the Celestion Neo SB300 (?) which is quite nice.

All in all, since the trans are both Mercury Magnetic, the freakin thing weights a lot. Need to weigh it but im afraid to.

But in the end, its a Fender Princeton Reverb with some tonal mellowing. It will never be a Polytone.

jk

Kudos for you for taking on such a project with your Princeton Reverb. I too wanted more from my '68 PR but didn't want to mess with a vintage amp, (especially with my poor electronics skills).

My solution was to get an 80's Princeton Reverb II. It's got a bigger cab; bigger transformer; 20 watts, 12" EV speaker, but NO Vibrato.
Basically its a down-sized Deluxe Reverb, but with a solid state rectifier for more headroom. It sounds amazing for jazz or any other music form.

Here's the specs:
1982-1986 Princeton Reverb II

[jzucker]

So about 15 years ago I set out to modify a Princeton Reverb AA763 into a ‘perfect’ jazz amp.
Experimented quite a bit, and ended up with the following mods. (BUT… its a tube amp, and its never going to sound like a Polytone!)
Power Supply: bigger capacity trans, larger capacity capacitors
Output trans: Found the Deluxe OT provided more headroom, warmed up the sound.
Tone Stack: as someone mentioned the tone stack is where you can really get some change. I set up a test rig that let me plug in various cap ratings, and found a combination that I thought mellowed the little beastie nicely.
Also, I disconnected the vibrato and added a mid tone control.
Speaker: at the time, I used an Eminence Delta Pro 12”, a reinforcement speaker not a guitar speaker. Now, it has the Celestion Neo SB300 (?) which is quite nice.

All in all, since the trans are both Mercury Magnetic, the freakin thing weights a lot. Need to weigh it but im afraid to.

But in the end, its a Fender Princeton Reverb with some tonal mellowing. It will never be a Polytone.

jk

the design of the princetone split-phase PI vs the long tail PI of the deluxe ensures that it'll never have great headroom. Did you change that too?

[medblues]

the design of the princetone split-phase PI vs the long tail PI of the deluxe ensures that it'll never have great headroom. Did you change that too?

Carr Rambler allegedly has the Princeton Phase Inverter (its pre-amp is inspired by the Deluxe Reverb) but has superb head room.

[unknownguitarplayer]

I use a TC Electronics Stereo pedal to run my Princeton along with my Henriksen once in a great while. It makes a great blended sound.

Thanks! Which pedal do you use?

[Stringswinger]

Thanks! Which pedal do you use?

Stereo Chorus +

[Woody Sound]

Stereo Chorus +

While this is true stereo, I want to point out that most of the time a simple splitter is used, which is just mono through two amps. With stereo chorus or stereo delay, etc, a slightly different signal goes to each amp, whether it be pitch based or time based, or both.

[jzucker]

Carr Rambler allegedly has the Princeton Phase Inverter (its pre-amp is inspired by the Deluxe Reverb) but has superb head room.

actually it didn't for me. I had one for a while and couldn't use it on many gigs. Not sure if it was the PI or the cathode bias design or the speaker though.

[medblues]

actually it didn't for me. I had one for a while and couldn't use it on many gigs. Not sure if it was the PI or the cathode bias design or the speaker though.

I had heard criticisms about the ones with Eminence Wizard in them before I bought mine with Elsinore in it. The problem with my comment is I never gigged with it.

[Stringswinger]

While this is true stereo, I want to point out that most of the time a simple splitter is used, which is just mono through two amps. With stereo chorus or stereo delay, etc, a slightly different signal goes to each amp, whether it be pitch based or time based, or both.

My Stereo pedal is from the 90's and seemingly doesn't alter the guitar tone very much if I use it to run two amps with no Chorus, flange or pitch modulation (all of which are available on this pedal).

I do love the blended sound. I do not love carrying two amps and a pedal to the gig. Especially considering how easy it is to do a gig with just a guitar and a small Henriksen amp. The only thing easier would be playing a saxophone.

[st.bede]

Apologies for a dumb and somewhat OT question but there have been a few mentions of using 2 amps, e.g. Polytone and Princeton. What's the best way to do that? Do you use additional hardware (stereo pedal) or just connect them directly? What's the best way to connect them directly. I remember doing that many years ago, but it quite susceptible to ground loops.

You have to make sure they amps are in phase. There are a number of boxes that will do that. I have a Radial one. Also having a ground lift can be very helpful, as you learned many years ago.

Figuring out if the two amps are in or out of phase can be really subtle but makes a huge difference.

The best way to do that is to turn the the amps towards each other and listen. However, I flip through my amp collection relatively often, and I can usually tell with out flipping them towards each other.

Out of phase, sounds like one amp is quietly eating the other and things just do not sound right. It feels like there is something missing.

Just recently, I put together a new pedal board. I was really happy with the board. (I have not taken the board out yet, I still have to cut all the cords to the right size, and velcro a couple of new pedals). Then at one point, I was keep thinking, “why is my guitar sounding a little too thin”? I adjusted PU height. It did not seem to have any effect. I looked at what strings were on the guitar. They were the strings I used for a brighter sound. I asked myself,”why did I put those on”? I then remembered, I wanted to experiment with a brighter set, even though the guitar really needs a warmer set. I went and bought the right strings. I then was thinking, “but things were working well before…. “. I realized that in the moving of pedals I must of switched the polarity button on my line splitter box/pedal. I used that pedal board at and at least a couple times before I realized the problem. (In my defense, I have mostly been playing my nylon at home and have been just using one amp out).

(Also pedals can flip the polarity. In a wet/dry situation that can become an issue).

It can be subtle but it makes a huge difference.

(The gigs I have played with a wet/dry setup, tend to get more positive responses from other band and audience members, then just one amp gigs… but it is more work to do. I have things setup so it is easy for me to dial in different needs fast. I also never worry about not having enough volume. I still end up taking only one amp often).

[John A.]

Apologies for a dumb and somewhat OT question but there have been a few mentions of using 2 amps, e.g. Polytone and Princeton. What's the best way to do that? Do you use additional hardware (stereo pedal) or just connect them directly? What's the best way to connect them directly. I remember doing that many years ago, but it quite susceptible to ground loops.

With the Princeton (and many other Fenders), you can jumper it to another amp by plugging one end of a guitar cable into the second input of the Princeton and the other end into the Polytone. if they're plugged into the same outlet there won't be a ground loop problem, but plugged into different outlets they're might be one. In theory, the two amps being out of phase (i.e., their speakers moving back and forth opposite to each other) could be a problem. But in practice it's not because the acoustics of the amps in the room are pretty complex. Worst case, if something sounds off, reposition one of the amps until it sounds OK.

You can also use some sort of ABY/Splitter box or a stereo effect such as chorus, reverb or delay. An active ABY box can help with ground loop issue, and would allow you to player either one or both. Stereo effects are cool if you like those effects. But if you just want two amps at the same time without any extra gear, jumpering works. I've done it with my Princeton Reverb and a couple of different amps and never had phasing or ground problems.

[st.bede]

My experience suggests that out of phase stuff is a problem. The frequencies that become masked tend to be the ones that help push through (and the ones that we love). However, these are just my experiences. I could not live with out of phase amps. There are ways of doing it, but I have never been happy.

[bluejaybill]

While this is true stereo, I want to point out that most of the time a simple splitter is used, which is just mono through two amps. With stereo chorus or stereo delay, etc, a slightly different signal goes to each amp, whether it be pitch based or time based, or both.

Yes, and that is a plus if you are using a space on a pedalboard, when disengaged it still passes mono to both amps, but has an effect when you want it.

I've been using a Fulltone Choralflange that way for years. Stereo is fun to play with at home but quickly gets lost in a live setting, where PA's aren't usually in stereo, at least until you get up to the big time.

[John A.]

My experience suggests that out of phase stuff is a problem. The frequencies that become masked tend to be the ones that help push through (and the ones that we love). However, these are just my experiences. I could not live with out of phase amps. There are ways of doing it, but I have never been happy.

There can be wave interference in the room, but unless the two amps are exactly aligned in the same planes vertically and horizontally and are close together, the interference will have other causes (e.g., reflections off surfaces in the room cancelling or enforcing each other). If you spread the amps out a little or phase them in slightly different directions (which is what one typically does with two amps, the conditions that produce phase cancellations due to reversed electrical polarity do not obtain.

[st.bede]

Stereo fx is a interesting beast on stage. I have found that thinking as if it was a mix into headphones is useless. If I think more about it as bouncing sound around to create more depth, that is not relying on a stereo field, things work better. However I still find wet/dry a little better. (Non PA stuff).

[st.bede]

There can be wave interference in the room, but unless the two amps are exactly aligned in the same planes vertically and horizontally and are close together, the interference will have other causes (e.g., reflections off surfaces in the room cancelling or enforcing each other). If you spread the amps out a little or phase them in slightly different directions (which is what one typically does with two amps, the conditions that produce phase cancellations due to reversed electrical polarity do not obtain.

Ok… my experience is different. If I spread out the amps, the hole seems bigger. I have never thought about placing at opposing angles… Like I said, this is based on my experiences, which are limited. Next time, I will try experiment with more radical amp placements. However if I hit a little switch, my phase problems disappear. What might be interesting is to place them back to back pointing in opposite directions and then use the wall to bounce back the sound.

[Alter]

I've done a lot of gigs with two amps, usually a small tube and a small solid state or acoustic amp. Say a Princeton and a Zt Linxchbox or an Aer.

An a/b box can be a life saver, cause plugging from one amp to another doesn't always give good results, you can have hum or phase issues. Something like a Lehle P-split solves everything.