Fender or Quilter

[st.bede]

Apples, oranges, watermelon are all cool… but pears.. one one really like those. Thank god, you did not try to advocate for kiwis. I have to use the fake attenuation on a kiwi to think I can even stomach that.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Apples, oranges, watermelon are all cool… but pears.. one one really like those. Thank god, you did not try to advocate for kiwis. I have to use the fake attenuation on a kiwi to think I can even stomach that.

I prefer bananas - they really have a peel.

[jazzkritter]

Strawberries. Contrarian. Totally different. But where did they go?

[jumpnblues]

But, but, but...I like kiwis!

[mheton]

but what about gooseberries now. They used to be very popular and nowadays?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

but what about gooseberries now. They used to be very popular and nowadays?

They make great smoothies! I used have one every day, but I had to stop making them. I was injured in a Fender blender.

[Gitterbug]

I'm trying to get back to OP's theme, but on a general level. To me, a non-American, Fender vs. Quilter is almost like Coke vs. Pepsi. Less of an issue for the rest of the world. Americans seem to have Fender in their DNA. But do even they choose fast food based on which of the two colas is on tap? Here on the Forum, other threads dwell (ad nauseam) on Polytone, a long-gone ginger ale or root beer brand, compared to the ruling colas. I dare say that Quilter's remaining problem is its Fender addiction. Pat Quilter, the amp genius, loves steel, country, Western swing, surf and whatever twangy, and you hear it. To me, DV Mark produces a darker, mellower and jazzier sound. In between, we have all the ICE Power based indie amps, which IMHO lack character. Then there's those who say they love Polytone but prefer Mambo in all respects. What do you know?

[Spook410]

I'm trying to get back to OP's theme..

It is hard to be completely analytical and focus just on what you hear. Even then, what you like to hear has been well conditioned over the years by the music you like (western harmonies, your favorite jazz guitar tones, et al). On the other hand if you start with an accurate acoustic guitar tone and work from there the results might be skewed by what is possible rather than what is expected. As digital signal processing continues to progress this may become the turning of a dial to anything we want even in humbucker equipped instruments.

As for American amps I would note that Vox and Marshall have had a great bearing on our collective listening experience.

[Stringswinger]

It is hard to be completely analytical and focus just on what you hear. Even then, what you like to hear has been well conditioned over the years by the music you like (western harmonies, your favorite jazz guitar tones, et al). On the other hand if you start with an accurate acoustic guitar tone and work from there the results might be skewed by what is possible rather than what is expected. As digital signal processing continues to progress this may become the turning of a dial to anything we want even in humbucker equipped instruments.

As for American amps I would note that Vox and Marshall have had a great bearing on our collective listening experience.

Beyond Vox and Marshall, there are Celestion Speakers. British amplification has influenced the guitar world quite a bit. In my view, the speaker has as much influence on what we hear as anything.

Perhaps we need an Eminence vs. Celestion vs. Jensen thread?

[entresz]

If it's of any help, I have a Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb and an older Quilter Aviator Twin Ten.

Both are great amps but they both have their pros/cons.

If you are after a Fender blackface sound, the Quilter is in the ballpark but is a little more midrangey and doesn't have quite as much bottom end. In some ways it tends to sound more tweed like to my ears. My acoustic archtops with floating pickups sound particularly good through that amp as they benefit from more mid range and less bass.

The Tonemaster Deluxe sounds to my ears very close to the real Deluxe Reverb. It's light, and sounds like a proper Fender blackface amp. The Quilter seems to feel more lively and direct, where as the Fender has almost a nanosecond of latency. It's barely noticeable, but if I play through the Fender for a while and switch to the Quilter I can feel a difference. It might even be the quick response of twin 10'' speakers vs the 12'' speaker in the Fender?

I thought I should update this. I've recently replaced the speakers in my gen1 Quilter Aviator Twin Ten. The stock speakers are Celestion G10 Vintages. One of them had some voice coil rub. I've replaced them with Jensen Tornado Neodymium speakers. Anyway, the sound of the amp is vastly different (improved in my opinion) now. The bottom-end is deeper, the midrange is a bit less strident, and the highs more smooth. It sounds more "Fender Blackface" than it did previously. The trade off is a slight loss in efficiency but the amp has so much power it's of no real concern.

[omphalopsychos]

I thought I should update this. I've recently replaced the speakers in my gen1 Quilter Aviator Twin Ten. The stock speakers are Celestion G10 Vintages. One of them had some voice coil rub. I've replaced them with Jensen Tornado Neodymium speakers. Anyway, the sound of the amp is vastly different (improved in my opinion) now. The bottom-end is deeper, the midrange is a bit less strident, and the highs more smooth. It sounds more "Fender Blackface" than it did previously. The trade off is a slight loss in efficiency but the amp has so much power it's of no real concern.

have you ever tried a Jensen tornado in your tonemaster deluxe?

[Gitterbug]

The Jensen N10/100 TR (Tornado) and Celestion G10 Vintage both have a sensitivity of 97 dB. Jensen's usable frequency range starts from 85 Hz, which is above its resonance frequency. Celestion is stated to start from 100 Hz, with resonance frequency at 115 Hz. Layman's interpretation: Tornado is happier in the low end of the scale. It's simply a great, balanced speaker across the range.

In jazz, a 12" speaker/humbucker combination easily produces muddy tones from the lowest strings. A 10" avoids this, is practically as loud as a 12" in civilized settings, projects broader and weighs less. With the proliferation of fixed PA systems in typical venues, and with at least Boomer audiences less and less thrilled by ear-pearcing decibels, stage volumes could be a lot lower - assuming of course the drummer's cooperation and no Hammond around.

[entresz]

have you ever tried a Jensen tornado in your tonemaster deluxe?

No I haven't yet - I quite like the stock speaker in the TM Deluxe. I am curious to try one though - the 10'' Tornado speakers seem well voiced for jazz guitar.

[entresz]

The Jensen N10/100 TR (Tornado) and Celestion G10 Vintage both have a sensitivity of 97 dB. Jensen's usable frequency range starts from 85 Hz, which is above its resonance frequency. Celestion is stated to start from 100 Hz, with resonance frequency at 115 Hz. Layman's interpretation: Tornado is happier in the low end of the scale. It's simply a great, balanced speaker across the range.

In jazz, a 12" speaker/humbucker combination easily produces muddy tones from the lowest strings. A 10" avoids this, is practically as loud as a 12" in civilized settings, projects broader and weighs less. With the proliferation of fixed PA systems in typical venues, and with at least Boomer audiences less and less thrilled by ear-pearcing decibels, stage volumes could be a lot lower - assuming of course the drummer's cooperation and no Hammond around.

Interesting they have the same efficiency of 97dB. It could be the extra mid-range and treble of the Celestions cause them to seem louder. The Celestions seem to have a more aggressive sound - probably better for rock and roll. Like I said before, the Quilter has tons of power so it really doesn't matter. I've been using the Quilter almost exclusively since I swapped out the speakers - the Jensens really sound amazing and bring the best out of the amp.

[jorgemg1984]

Just as a caution note - apparently part of the modelling on the Fender Tonemaster speakers is between the power amp and the speakers, there's a filter of sorts to emulate the behaviour of a tube power amp with the speaker. By changing speakers, you loose that and (maybe or maybe not) part of the mojo of the amps. So, it's not the same as changing a speaker in a regular Fender.

[bluenote61]

Just as a caution note - apparently part of the modelling on the Fender Tonemaster speakers is between the power amp and the speakers, there's a filter of sorts to emulate the behaviour of a tube power amp with the speaker. By changing speakers, you loose that and (maybe or maybe not) part of the mojo of the amps. So, it's not the same as changing a speaker in a regular Fender.

Can you explain that more detailed?
I thought it goes from the ICEPower class D power amp module straight to the speakers and all of tone modelling is done in the previous stage in the digital section.

[jorgemg1984]

Can you explain that more detailed?
I thought it goes from the ICEPower class D power amp module straight to the speakers and all of tone modelling is done in the previous stage in the digital section.

I thought so too, but it seems not. Read post #2 on this thread. If you ask there, you'll get a much better explanation that I can give you....

Fender Tonemaster Speaker Swap?

[omphalopsychos]

Just as a caution note - apparently part of the modelling on the Fender Tonemaster speakers is between the power amp and the speakers, there's a filter of sorts to emulate the behaviour of a tube power amp with the speaker. By changing speakers, you loose that and (maybe or maybe not) part of the mojo of the amps. So, it's not the same as changing a speaker in a regular Fender.

You might change the behavior, but there's no way that you lose this modeling. There's no unique technology in the celestion speakers. You might get a different response with other speakers, but you wouldn't lose the modeling behavior, which happens in the amp.

Even if Fender use the Celestion neo speaker to calibrate the modeling software of the tone masters, it doesn't mean that other speakers will necessarily sound bad. The fact that Fender released it with two different types of speakers (jensen and celestion) is reason to believe other speakers might sound good to. Additionally the line out has more than one cab sim option, so I doubt that the oem speakers are the only valid speaker options.

[jorgemg1984]

You might change the behavior, but there's no way that you lose this modeling. There's no unique technology in the celestion speakers. You might get a different response with other speakers, but you wouldn't lose the modeling behavior, which happens in the amp.

Even if Fender use the Celestion neo speaker to calibrate the modeling software of the tone masters, it doesn't mean that other speakers will necessarily sound bad. The fact that Fender released it with two different types of speakers (jensen and celestion) is reason to believe other speakers might sound good to. Additionally the line out has more than one cab sim option, so I doubt that the oem speakers are the only valid speaker options.

I really wouldn't know what to tell you - I don't have enough knowledge on the subject. I just posted so that someone thinking of changing the speaker know that they might loose something in the process. That doesn't mean you won't like the new sound more

[InsufferableRhythm]

It's not between the power amp and the speaker(s). It's part of the software modelling.

[Campbell_jazz]

Has anyone actually swapped a tone master speaker?

[omphalopsychos]

It's not between the power amp and the speaker(s). It's part of the software modelling.

Exactly my thinking too. I can't imagine there would be a second DSP after the power amp.

[InsufferableRhythm]

Exactly my thinking too. I can't imagine there would be a second DSP after the power amp.

Fortunately we don't need to imagine anything. I've reimplemented their modelling (specifically, the Princeton) and therefore know exactly where the filter is placed.

[entresz]

I've seen a few threads on TDPRI where people have swapped speakers on Tonemaster amps - seems to be okay. From what I understand the stock neo speaker (N-12K) is supposed to sound as close to a Jensen C-12K as possible. Personally I am really keen on the JBL sound - one of my favourite speakers is the D-130. It would be cool to hear a JBL style 12" in the Tonemaster. They are very detailed and unforgiving in some respects, so it might reveal digital artifacts that otherwise wouldn't be noticeable.

[jorgemg1984]

Ok, my bad, thanks for the clarification.