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[QUOTE=Oscar67;1233152]You seem to think it was conscious company policy, like Fender putting out guitars with lacquer all over the frets as they did in the late ‘80s. I doubt that. Ibanez never took that route in their long history. On the contrary, the brand is widely associated with excellence. This seems to me like a bad incident. Their QC process failed.
Not a bit of it. It is entirely cynical. Far faster to slap a neck on at a clearly too high break angle than spend time getting the pitch just right. I experienced this on an AS153 which was easily as bad as the OP's guitar ( returned ) and an AM93 ( returned ) my current AS93 is overall worth keeping but still had an issue with neck pitch resulting in 'surgery' to the TOM. All Indonesian. My AfJ95 ( 7 years old ) from China is close to perfect.
David
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11-25-2022 08:51 AM
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Aren’t you expecting the real deal in a few weeks? If so, return this and try to muster a little more patience. As a GB10 owner, I can tell you it’s worth the wait. Save your shekels. Nice detailed evaluation, though.
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Well... videos are misleading. Period
The video with the guy demoing his amps and saying he doesn't play much jazz, or this guitar, says a lot.
"Work on it, get the right strings, pick, settings, and feel" - it's not automatic ! While I know, I had a '65 Gibson Johnny Smith that I could not really make music with. And a few others.
The guy in the second video from Peach Guitars, used his fingers for picking. HUGE difference - nice tone and feel.
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Jimmy blue note, thanks for taking the time for giving such a detailed and patient answer for my rant. I forgot to put a warning line before my post, "be aware a rant follows"
Anyway, I partly spoke for my experience, I had one beautiful looking Ibanez AM93, but definitely as instrument is was way inferior than its look. I feel offended because it was my first guitar, and it took painful years realizing, the issues and gradually getting know the flaws of the guitar. I had also an other, less beautiful AS53 (we warned, the next few sentences in this paragraph are a rant) well it was a useless piece of wood. Practically nothing worked on that. The only excuse, that is a very low price category, still it was useless.
Regarding your argument "if George trust...". There are many situations when this may go wrong, so we can not state "everything is OK, just because we can not see public court cases. Maybe George does not even know about, probably he does not read jazzguitar.be, also I am, sure his instruments are perfect, maybe knows some opinions, but Ibanez denies, maybe he knows some as fact, but there a 10 years long contract, and I can continue this listing.
So I do not think "if George trusts..." is a strong argument. Actually it is exactly what I wrote about originally, maybe Ibanez uses, and misuses our respect to George Benson.
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'For people that think and are saying that the made in Japan model and the Indonesian model are the same are completely mistaken.. the difference is chalk and cheese in every way.
Even Ibanez are being economical with the truth when they say they are the same.'
Dead right. After the abysmal ASI53(most aspects), the AM93 with bizaare neck-set angle and my current AS93 ( now playable after several hours of work but still having had to perform 'surgery' on the TOM ) and the above OP's example I aam beginning to think you are on the money. God knows what standards the inspectors ( referred to earlier in the thread are working to in the importing country ( in my case, France ). Trading on past glories. Accountants rule.
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Got locked out of the forum for a few days so could not continue this thread..
Aside from the obvious already discussed quality and workmanship issue with this guitar I am taking advantage of the time it's in my possession to examine a few other things. (yes it is going back)
One major one being string tension.
How do you adjust the string tension on a hollow body jazz guitar? This Ibanez GB10SE’s string tension is so tight it's practically unplayable.
A jazz guitar is meant to be fluid and tactile and effortless to play.. this one is a struggle and somewhat painful to play chords and smooth runs on. It came with flat-wound 11's
I have the same identical strings on my Telecaster and despite the scale length not being massively dissimilar it plays like butter and is completely effortless to play requiring almost no finger weight.
The GB10 has a low action but it doesn't help. The tension in the strings feels hard, rigid and inflexible.
I reduced the bridge break angle to the maximum possible using the 2 bridge adjusters but it has made no discernible difference.
I have never had a problem setting up guitars before as have been doing it 40 years. But this one is mystery to me.
Anyone have any suggestions please?
Some have advised using a lighter gauge string but I will then lose the thick warm tone I am after and the whole reason for buying these Ibanez GB10’s in the first place.
Even gauge 12 flat-wounds on my telecaster feel softer and far more pliable and playable than 11’s on this GB10SE. Man even 14's on my Tele are easier and softer and more effortless to play than the 11's on this GB10.
What do you think the issue could be and does anyone have suggestions on to resolve this and make this guitar nice, pleasant and less a fight to play?
I am just trying to iron out any niggles or problems before hand before the made in Japan one arrives which I am sincerely hoping has none of this drama.
I know some here have said: "You should always try any guitar before buying".. but in London you simply can not. There's are no stores that stock them, they are all pre-order only. They only was to try one was to buy one.
I sent a long highly detailed email with tons of photos about the issues with this guitar to Ibanez UK and Ibanez main headquarters in Japan. I have not received any response at all.
Even the dealer does not want to adress or even acknowledge the faults, flaws and quality issues issues with this guitar and are completely ignoring any and all questions as to how this was sold while being 'passed' by their quality control guitar experts.
These said experts have mysteriously vanished and unavailable for comment.
Which considering I have spent over £10k on various Ibanez guitars and gear is pretty sad I have to say. £5,700 with that dealer alone.
Their only response is to return it, and not another word.(I have 30 days)
Whatever happened to valuing your customer and customer after sales care?
Oh: I also sent the same email to George Benson himself to make him aware of what's being sold in his name and on his reputation.. and within one day got a response from his personal manager expressing their care and concern along with the 10 month wait to get a made in Japan GB10 and promised to get back to me with a solution which considering how busy these people must be was a very kind and amazingly and generous response. Let's see.
PS: I see no GB10SE owners have shared close up photos of their 'perfect' guitars as requested. Could it be that they all suffer from these same issues? I'm dying to be proved wrong.
Looks like Ibanez too are shy about showing real close up details of this guitar.. it's all the same "from a distance stuff.." I wonder why?
GB10SE | GB | HOLLOW BODIES | PRODUCTS | Ibanez guitars - ??????Last edited by Maxxx; 11-30-2022 at 02:31 AM.
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You might end up with more than a few Ibanez picks ...
Originally Posted by Maxxx
S
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Maxxx,
Sorry you got such a dog. I’ve been meaning to weigh in on this thread but I’m slammed with work and some life right now. I want to chime in, though, to offer some thoughts and eventually some pictures.
Your experience is reminding me of a lousy time I had with a Fender Jazzmaster. I found one I liked on Amazon, sold by Fender. It was an unplayable, unusable mess, up to and including what appeared to be a large and rough file mark across one whole length of the fretboard. I still can’t believe that it made it into the case, let alone into the market. I sent them a nasty gram with my return and moved on (but not really because I’m writing about it a year or two after the fact and I’m still annoyed by the waste of time and resources).
I own an early Chinese Ibanez GB10SE that I actually bought it twice, in part because I missed out on the opportunity to buy an Indonesian made GB10SE. The Indonesian version was being sold by a very reputable local shop. They loved the model, but didn’t end up keeping it in stock because there’s not a big market for jazz boxes here.
Anyway, I’d love to share pictures of my GB10SE, and I’d love to do a kind of comparison between it and my Ibanez PM100. A sample size of one or two usually isn’t very useful, but anecdotal evidence can be better than none. Maybe collectively we can create a sort of database for people? Just throwing it out there.
Let me know if I should attach pictures here, or if we should create another spot. It might be several days before I can take pictures, but I’d love to help the community out.
Best,
Mark
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Mark, I do not think you need ask if you can post guitar photos or not, in this forum :-)
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Hi Mark.. yes please do!! Right here would be just fine. Nice close ups of all sides of the nut, the fret ends, the, binding and purfling particularly around the neck heel and join and the f-holes, the hardware, details of the pickups and tail pieces, gold finishing, the bridge etc. Whether Chinese or Indonesian. What brand and gauge strings it came with. And maybe a description of how it felt, played and sounded and anything else you want to say about it. Also whether you bought it brand new or not and would you have been willing to have paid the brand new price for it? Originally Posted by osloutah
Perhaps the comparison to your JSM in a separate thread but the GB10SE pics right here please.Last edited by Maxxx; 11-30-2022 at 02:43 AM.
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The only thing I can think of is that maybe the action isn't as low as you think, possibly at the nut, or because of too much relief. A given string will produce a given pitch at a tension that is defined by the scale length - break angle, saddle height, amount of string beyond the saddle or nut etc. have no influence. They can have an influence on how taut a string feels though, but if scale length (measured along the string! *) and strings are really identical between 2 guitars you get the same tensions on both when you tune to the same pitch. If you set the relief and action at the 1st and 12th frets to the same values you should get the same ease of playing. Originally Posted by Maxxx
Two things can make a difference though: nutwidth, and how the playable portion (nut-bridge) falls w.r.t your body when you're holding the instrument. The further to the left the saddle (and nut), the harder it will feel in my experience.
*) This means that a considerably wider string spacing at the saddle will cause at least the outer strings to be a tad longer and thus tune to pitch at a somewhat higher tension than the centre strings.
(Good thing email notifications work again ... I wouldn't have read this question online given the tiny font you're using...)
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@maxx, the tension on the GB series guitars with the metal bridge are lower than any other archtop I've ever owned. Combine it with a thomastik JS112 set and it feels like .010s on a Les Paul.
The two thumb screws adjust tailpiece height and distance from bridge. The higher the tailpiece and closer to the strings, the lower the tension.
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Thank you very much RJVB & Jzucker for this invaluable information. (Apologies for the small font size, on my 27" screen it looks huge! What size do you suggest I choose in future?)
I did tweak the ebony adjustable bridge and managed to get the string height the same as my Telecaster at the 12th fret.. but it still feels
more suitable for slicing frozen ham or shaving the bark off a tree than playing music on.
Obviously I could not redo the whole brass/bone nut mess as that would involve permanently altering the guitar which would invalidate the return and I'd be stuck with a dead goose.
And now the bad news: The GB10 Japan I was expecting Dec 28th has now been pushed back to February 14th 2023! That would be a whole year after its initial order date.
And even that is not guaranteed.
Oh boy.. this is all getting a bit depressing
Last edited by Maxxx; 11-30-2022 at 10:19 AM.
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the tension is not just about the action. I'm talking about adjusting the screws on the tailpiece. Not the bridge. The perceived tension is a combination of the string height and the tailpiece characteristics as I mentioned in my thread. Originally Posted by Maxxx
Thank you very much RJVB & Jzucker for this invaluable information. (Apologies for the small font size, on my 27" screen it looks huge! What size do you suggest I choose in future?)
I did tweak the ebony adjustable bridge and managed to get the string height the same as my Telecaster at the 12th fret.. but it still feels
more suitable for slicing frozen ham or shaving the bark off a tree than playing music on.
Obviously I could not redo the whole brass/bone nut mess as that would involve permanently altering the guitar which would invalidate the return and I'd be stuck with a dead goose.
And now the bad news: The GB10 Japan I was expecting Dec 28th has now been pushed back to February 14th 2023! That would be a whole year after its initial order date.
And even that is not guaranteed.
Oh boy..
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No. This just lowers the perceived stiffness. Originally Posted by jzucker
I figured that much, but just use the default font size of the forum. You can adjust the font settings of your browser to something more suitable to your screen; on MS Windows there is also a screen magnification setting that is set to something >1 by default on high resolution screens so (say) a 12pt font looks the same size it does as on a standard screen (I think it's in the Display section of the control panel). Or alternatively you can install a browser extension like Zoom Page WE which makes it easier to chose per-site magnification settings. Originally Posted by Maxxx
NB: this forum also offers a font choice "system". I use that for my signature, and I understand it makes the site use whatever font family you have configured in your browser. IMHO that's the most "polite" thing to do (w.r.t. our readers: respect their choices).
I'm not sure that setting up the guitar would jeopardise your possibilities to return it (just like too high string action at the nut is no argument for returning a guitar...). But I can understand you prefer to leave that alone. It does mean that there is very little you can do. If you know how to cut and install your nuts you could try if the stock one comes out easily, put a proper one in, and then reverse all that before returning the guitar. But wouldn't you have to return the thing before your Japanese GB10 arrives anyway?Obviously I could not redo the whole brass/bone nut mess as that would involve permanently altering the guitar which would invalidate the return and I'd be stuck with a dead goose.
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Thanks for the suggestion but In an earlier comment I did say I adjusted the screws in the tailpiece and tried both extremes.. it made barely any difference at all. Originally Posted by jzucker
I have also read others comments on these guitars that the adjustment screws on the tail piece had little effect for them as well.
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Which is commonly referred to as tension. Nobody cares whether it meets the technical criteria in physics for tension. Perceived tension is what the player feels and that's what matters Originally Posted by RJVB
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'If' it ever arrives. (See my previous more bad news comment above) Originally Posted by RJVB
The stock nut is glued in tight.. if I would and I could do so myself I would replace it entirely with an actual half brass/half bone nut.. more like the real GB10's. This one seems more like 75% brass and 25% bone which makes the tone lean towards overly bright and cold.
I would also cut it differently.. each string at its correct depth into the nut so the strings ride slightly over the nut as adverse to through it.. and the correct widths for each string thickness. This one has every cut the same excessive depth and width. The low E can easily sit in the slot cut for the high E. That's just sloppy.
If I would do all of that I think it would definitely invalidate my return. So I have admitted defeat on this one and it's going back tomorrow for a refund.
Back to the drawing board.Last edited by Maxxx; 11-30-2022 at 11:47 AM.
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FYI, a brass nut only sounds bright on open strings. As soon as you press a string down against a fret, the nut no longer effects tone. Originally Posted by Maxxx
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^ No, the nut material still affects the tone for closed notes.
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Interesting point.. but why would anyone want bright just on the open strings? Then what's the selling point of a half brass half bone nut? Why not just do all brass? Originally Posted by jzucker
And what would you get if you fretted an entire neck with bone frets?
I may have to disagree with that one because when I changed the nut on my tele to bone the entire sound of the guitar changed.. and not just on the open strings.
Things we should know about our nuts: Does a Guitar’s Nut Affect Its Tone? [Complete Guide]
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An outside possibility -- have the frets been over dressed so that they are very low? I find that guitars with very low frets can be hard to play because too much of one's finger tips contact the fingerboard, wasting some of the finger pressure and giving a hard feel to the action. Originally Posted by Maxxx
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Once a note is closed, it doesn't matter if the nut is bone, plastic, brass, etc. The only thing that effects tone is what is in between the fretted note and the bridge. Stuff behind the fretted note don't effect tone. They might effect things like perceived tension, sustain, etc., which some may construe as tone but they won't sound brighter or duller. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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I have a very light and accurate touch. I learnt to play in the beginning from violin books not guitar books.. so finger tip placement is pretty precise. Every guitar I have ever had I set up for the lowest action possible. Think touch typing spider technique. Originally Posted by aquin43
The biggest issue with this GB10SE is not even the left hand, playing bass has made that hand pretty strong, it's the right. Tension is so high that my picking hand (the pick) jams, trips and snags instead of just bouncing off one note to the next
in neat, fluid, even fashion. There's very little flex or give. It's just too taught.
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Again my experience is different.. the bone nut install on my telly made the entire guitar warmer and less bright.. everywhere. Originally Posted by jzucker
Not just perceived.. even my guitar friends felt the same and some are luthiers. Mass psychosis maybe?
Here's Paul Reed Smith on how nuts affect tone. I don't hear him mentioning open strings only.
Yes finger pressure on a fret does shorten the string length but it's not a mechanical high pressure steel vice , it's just a soft bit of padded flesh. A simple test would be to fret a note, then cut the string between the fretted note and the nut with a pair of pliers and see what happens to your fretted note. It will vanish and your note and tone will be gone. The tone is definitely affected by what lies behind the fretted note.. ie, the nut.
Last edited by Maxxx; 11-30-2022 at 02:49 PM.
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