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you must have missed my thread from last year where brand new AF2000 and AF200 had bad quality issues and where ibanez customer service was too busy to bother replying to my issues.
Originally Posted by m_d
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12-19-2022 09:10 AM
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The cost of labor is only part of the issue. It's also the cost of materials. The same labor in south korea or indonesia is making higher end guitars for other companies such as peerless, comins, ibanez. Originally Posted by skiboyny
I suspect that most of the guitar is made by CNC machines.
The difference between the higher end models and the lower end models boils down to what specifications the manufacturer wanted to use - to hit a particular price point. Cheaper woods, electronics, hardware, etc.
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some folks may find this interesting...Epiphone china factory tour. From 6 years ago. I heard that much more is automated today.
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Have watched this previously when I was researching a chinese built sheraton II pro. I think they have moved production to Indonesia now if I understand it, which is a shame, because if you look at the body press machines it is all very nicely done. Correct me if I'm wrong about moving that operation. As the American foreman states most of the workers had been there 10 years or more so we are talking about skilled staff. The Sheraton II I had was a really well set up guitar, the only drawbacks being the neck dive and cheap pots and switches. Cheap electronics, especially pots and toggle switches, seems to be par for the course for the chinese guitars I have had. I should've just bit the bullet and upgraded all the electronics and threw a bigsby on there to balance it out as the action and fretwork was impeccable. How many sub 1k guitars come with a 5 piece neck? Not many. It just wasn't a priority at the time and money was tighter then for gear expenditures as I was neck deep in building a home. Originally Posted by jzucker
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I did mention materials. It's becoming a real thing. I believe that some of the most time consuming and important in producing a "playable" guitar requires trained human hands. This is where ALL the manufactures lose the battle. Neck sets, fretwork, set up are things that require expertise. If done by machine someone very trained has to operate it to get an acceptable result. Even if this is done "reasonably well" the discriminating player will still have to fine tune to taste. That comes at a cost and therein lies the problem. My opinion of course. Originally Posted by jzucker
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the machine does all the work. There is no reasonable or exceptional means of cutting. It's all the same. I'm in the factory automation business so i'm very familiar with the workflow. The CNC machines are capable of milling to within thousandths of an inch. MUCH more precise than any human can. It doesn't require rocket science to operate the machine. The only mistake that can be made is if the piece is not inserted into the machine properly in which case it would be WAYYYYY off and possibly even break the cutting tool. So as long as the piece is secured, it will cut the exact same way EVERY time. The difference is that the cheaper instruments are made using cheaper, non seasoned woods and cheap hardware. The two indonesian ibanez basses I had used american and japanese hardware and for all intents and purposes were milled EXACTLY the same as their japanese counterparts. Yet, both of them developed twists and bows that could not be compensated for. In the fretless case, the neck was hopelessly reverse bowed and with the fretted bass, the neck shape just didn't retain stability. I had it fret leveled and then when the cold weather hit, it just moved again and now buzzes like crazy. These were milled perfectly but the woods were cheap. The workers in the factory are dependent on the suppliers and the suppliers are procured for a specific price point. There are indonesian and south korean factories churning out $5k-$10 instruments that are amazing but they are using properly seasoned and dried woods. Originally Posted by skiboyny
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I definitely missed that thread. Quality issues at Ibanez Japan. What's happening with the world? Originally Posted by jzucker
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It's actually worse than that because I tried contacting their support 3/4 times including getting an artist rep to contact them twice asking them to please contact me regarding a support issue and they were too busy to bother to reply. So I returned both instruments. I ended up buying a 175 instead of the AF2000 and got a Yamaha SA2000 instead of the AS2000 and honestly couldn't be happier. So in the end it worked out for me. I still have a GB10 though the pickups they have been using since the 90s are horribly bright in those guitars. Originally Posted by m_d
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Then you didn't read my postings elsewhere regarding an appalling AS-153, AMH90 and AS93, all exhibiting that exact structural fault and all sent by three major retailers, two French and one German. I think the final quality (sic) control is where these mega-dealers send out the worst examples as a sort of filter in reverse and hope not too many come back to them under their 30-day return policy. Bot sure how long ago you owned your Chinese Artcore but I too have a Chinese built AFJ95 which is close to perfect and with a Seth Lover in the neck is excellent. It would seem that the bulk of the problems lie with Indonesia. Originally Posted by m_d
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AM93, sold it about 4 years ago, had it for 2 years or less. Originally Posted by blackcat
Maybe the big retail model wasn't so wise and the net result will be less guitars being churned out like toys on the assembly line and a rededication to instruments ?
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Do you really think that is more difficult and/or requires more training and expertise than making perfectly finished bracing, kerfing, binding with (double) purfling or spraying a perfect coat of varnish? A proper set-up, yes, that requires different skills that factory workers don't need to know. But creating a proper nut or saddle *) with slots filed to certain standard specs, or indeed installing frets properly doesn't require that much more knowledge or training than doing the same half-bakedly, IMHO. I'm convinced it's easier, even; I've discovered I'm quite decent at things like installing a ZeroGlide nut or redoing nut/saddle slots without any relevant training but wouldn't dream of trying to build an entire guitar. Originally Posted by skiboyny
*) Besides: who makes the common adjustable saddles for archtops, be they TOMs or "just" wood micro-compensated ones? More skilled workers than those who build guitars?
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Glad to hear you like the Yamaha. Everyone seems to like that model. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Yeah, it's different. A bit more airy sounding than the ibanez or gibson. More jazzy I think but has a better fusion/blues tone than the ibanez which is very bright and a bit splatty for distorted tones. Lighter too. Originally Posted by m_d
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No I don't think building the guitar bracing, kerfing binding and spray needs special skills. I'm sure the machines can be set up to do those tasks better than humans. But the neck set angle must be set perfectly someone needs to be very particular about that. After it's all put together in one piece the frets need to be leveled. The guitar needs to be set up. No matter how perfect the build might be wood is a unstable product it needs to be evaluated and set up by a human to turn out properly. If that weren't true they would all have perfect playing guitars and I just don't see that. Originally Posted by RJVB
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the setups should be done by machine by most manufacturers. And if the neck joint and the neck are planed and cut correctly, the neck angle is built into the cuts (which are done by machine). The clamp merely tightens the wood to wood contact. Originally Posted by skiboyny
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Exactly. And along a similar vein, if neck and fretboard were fabricated correctly (and why wouldn't be if the rest of the instrument was) then I (naively?) don't see why fret dressing would be required. Beyond the edges evidently, and assuming they were installed (seated) correctly. Originally Posted by jzucker
I do realise I'm approaching this with the assumption of an acoustic guitar, where the (wood)working skills requirements are probably a bit higher than for the average e-guitar.
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A fret level/dressing is almost always required because if done properly, the tangs of the frets exert outward pressure into the slots which causes the fingerboard to buckle slightly. Some cheap manufacturers cut the slots wider and rely on glue so in those cases the fingerboard shape wouldn't change but when strings are put on and when tuned up, all bets are off. Stating the obvious, wood is organic...Therefore, when string pressure is applied, the fingerboard tends to bow in an unpredictable way, requiring fret leveling. Many manufacturers skip the step of leveling at this point in the process. The greener the wood, the worse these effects are. Originally Posted by RJVB
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So you get that every time after levelling and dressing the frets? Originally Posted by jzucker
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Absolutely. Which is why the best fret levelers like Dan Earlwine and Ken Lesko (and MANY others) use a device which simulates various string guage pressures during the leveling process. It's also what happens with a plek machine. Originally Posted by RJVB
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This is the stew-mac one that earlwine developed. Originally Posted by RJVB
Ken Lesko built his own.
Plek uses something similar but is automated and allows you to select the string brand and type via computer and then applies the pressure via automation techniques.
STS - String Tension Simulation - Plek
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Some luthiers also leave the strings on and do the leveling under tension using a leveling bar designed for that, such as this . Originally Posted by jzucker
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