Amp comparison: Princeton Reverb, Quilter Superblock, Henriksen Bud 10, Tungsten CW

[ruger9]

I recently learned that the PRRI weighs 34 lbs, which is also dramatically heavier than a pine-cabinet Princeton Reverb. .

You're telling me! I have a Knotty Pine Princeton Reverb with as 12" ALNICO Cream in it. It weighs much more than it looks like it does!

[omphalopsychos]

I'd love to hear why... people of course have preferences, but this is the first time I've heard of a NON-12" preference WITH ARCHTOPS.

This is definitely not a unique opinion; it's one that I share with many colleagues I've spoken to about it. If it were, Henriksen wouldn't have discontinued their 12" models.

It's simple: archtops produce much more energy in the low register. Through 12" speakers, archtops are susceptible to get lost in the mix, be too boomy, feedback excessively, or all of the above.

Additionally, (and this is maybe more of a niche opinion), I don't like 12"s with any of my guitars as much as I like 10s. With the right magnet you can get a very solid bottom end (e.g. celestion gold) but they have a more detailed treble response (i.e. freq response above 5k) compared to 12s. Additionally, they distribute sound more omnidirectionally. 12" speakers produce concentrated beams of energy, and they tend to sound very different depending on the listeners spatial relation with the amp. 10s just fill the room better.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I recently learned that the PRRI weighs 34 lbs, which is also dramatically heavier than a pine-cabinet Princeton Reverb. I assumed that the PCB and components in the chassis might add weight in addition to the cabinet. But that still doesn't explain why a SF PR would be so heavy.

Here’s another fact for the mix. The current PRRI in a birch ply cab weighs 34 pounds, and the CS PR (which is now $2800!) weighs 32 pounds in its pine cab.

[ruger9]

This is definitely not a unique opinion; it's one that I share with many colleagues I've spoken to about it. If it were, Henriksen wouldn't have discontinued their 12" models.

It's simple: archtops produce much more energy in the low register. Through 12" speakers, archtops are susceptible to get lost in the mix, be too boomy, feedback excessively, or all of the above.

Additionally, (and this is maybe more of a niche opinion), I don't like 12"s with any of my guitars as much as I like 10s. With the right magnet you can get a very solid bottom end (e.g. celestion gold) but they have a more detailed treble response (i.e. freq response above 5k) compared to 12s. Additionally, they distribute sound more omnidirectionally. 12" speakers produce concentrated beams of energy, and they tend to sound very different depending on the listeners spatial relation with the amp. 10s just fill the room better.

Well I disagree with the whole notion of 10's "filling a room better" and 12's being "beams of energy", I have owned both and frankly feel the exact opposite about that. But I play almost exclusively solidbodies and love mids. But differences is what make the world go round.

[bluejaybill]

This is definitely not a unique opinion; it's one that I share with many colleagues I've spoken to about it. If it were, Henriksen wouldn't have discontinued their 12" models.

It's simple: archtops produce much more energy in the low register. Through 12" speakers, archtops are susceptible to get lost in the mix, be too boomy, feedback excessively, or all of the above.

Additionally, (and this is maybe more of a niche opinion), I don't like 12"s with any of my guitars as much as I like 10s. With the right magnet you can get a very solid bottom end (e.g. celestion gold) but they have a more detailed treble response (i.e. freq response above 5k) compared to 12s. Additionally, they distribute sound more omnidirectionally. 12" speakers produce concentrated beams of energy, and they tend to sound very different depending on the listeners spatial relation with the amp. 10s just fill the room better.

I understand what you are saying, and I love 10's as well, but I think it's quite speaker dependent. I bet I could find 12's and 10's that work in the opposite way that you describe. And 10's can have a ton of bass, they are frequently used in bass amps after all. I suspect Henrikson decided that everyone wanted smaller lighter amps, and that was the decision point.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I understand what you are saying, and I love 10's as well, but I think it's quite speaker dependent. I bet I could find 12's and 10's that work in the opposite way that you describe. And 10's can have a ton of bass, they are frequently used in bass amps after all. I suspect Henrikson decided that everyone wanted smaller lighter amps, and that was the decision point.

Smaller speakers can make better bass than larger ones for many reasons. The cones are shorter, so they're stiffer and have lower mass. Stiffer means they can push more air in more perfect waves, since cone flex introduces irregularities in frequency response and dispersion pattern and it slows and blurs transient response. A flexing, vibrating cone will also generate harmonics related to its physical dimensions. Lower mass means that they can accelerate and decelerate faster with less overshoot. As long as the range of motion of the voice coil is long enough to move sufficient air, a well designed 6, 8 or 10 can make clean, tight, deep bass in a compatible cabinet. But it can only do so below the SPL at which it starts distorting.

Because harmonic distortion is proportional to (but not linear with) cone / coil excursion, a single small driver with a really long coil path will put out more and more harmonic distortion as its output level is increased beyond a certain point. So designers use multiple small drivers to move enough air to achieve the desired SPL with clean transients and low distortion. This is the "secret" of Phil Jones' great bass cabs.

My trusty old EVM 12s put out amazingly clean, tight bass with very little harmonic distortion. But they're very well designed and made with stiff cones, big voice coils, and magnets that could lift crushed cars at the junkyard.

[omphalopsychos]

Well I disagree with the whole notion of 10's "filling a room better" and 12's being "beams of energy", I have owned both and frankly feel the exact opposite about that. But I play almost exclusively solidbodies and love mids. But differences is what make the world go round.

I won't disagree with your subjective experience, but speaker directivity is a function of speaker size. All speakers have some degree of directivity/directionality/beaminess. Smaller drivers are less "beamy" than larger drivers. This is because a driver cannot be directional over a frequency whose wavelength is larger than the driver itself. In other words, when the frequency's wavelength is larger than the diameter of the driver, the sound at that wavelength is distributed more omidirectionally. For frequencies whose wavelengths are smaller than the driver, the speaker will project them forward. The degree of directivity is proportional to the frequency wavelength.


This describes why a speaker can sound "darker" to a listener off-axis. The higher frequencies have greater a degree of directionality.


^^^ As I said all of the above has to do with the diameter of the driver. If the speaker is smaller, then the minimum wavelength that exceeds the diameter of the driver is lower. If the speaker is larger, then the minimum wavelength that exceeds the diameter of the driver is higher. In other words the off-axis response will be relatively stronger for a smaller driver than a larger one. The sound of a smaller speaker will be more omnidirectional.


There are tons of other factors at play, so I imagine that you have experienced amps that may have counterbalancing design factors to make them less directional.

[omphalopsychos]

Anyway, I can say from trying several 12"s speakers is that I've never played one I love more than a 10" with good bass response.

[John A.]

I didn’t recall my Princetons as being that heavy, John. So I searched my catalog and review collection. My old Fender literature and a few articles suggest that the original weight of a SF PR with MDF cab was 31 pounds. That doesn’t mean they actually were, as manufacturers’ specs can be a bit off and/or not updated for every production change. But it’s hard to explain 6 more pounds on that basis. And as I recall, the C10R was the original speaker and the Q only weighs about a pound more.

I’ve weighed mine and it’s 37. I suppose my scale could be off … I mean it does tell me I weigh more than I do

Upate: We recent got a new scale and I weighed my PR just now. It’s 34.6 lbs.

Also, I was looking at specs for speakers. The Jensen Jet Tornado is actually about a half pound heavier than the C10Q. Maybe there are lighter neo speakers than this? But it seems like it would be pretty tough to get the weight of a PR below 30 lbs, even with a pine cabinet.

[John A.]

Regarding "beaminess" of speakers, my experience (with 6.5", 8, 10, 12, and 15" drivers) is that bigger = more directional. I find 10 to be the sweet spot, with 8 being pretty good. I imagine not everyone would agree with this (and I haven’t done measurements), but I find a Jensen C10Q to have louder bass than a JBL D130F.

[Alter]

Generally for me, single coils like 12s, humbuckers like 10s. And with solid woods archtops 10s have been safer at gigs, feedback wise, and easier to control on the bass/boomy register.

[EastwoodMike]

Regarding "beaminess" of speakers, my experience (with 6.5", 8, 10, 12, and 15" drivers) is that bigger = more directional. I find 10 to be the sweet spot, with 8 being pretty good. I imagine not everyone would agree with this (and I haven’t done measurements), but I find a Jensen C10Q to have louder bass than a JBL D130F.

anyone remember those fancy Bose lifestyle surround systems with the tiny 1.5” drivers in little cubes sprinkled around the corners of a room? They were all the rage in the early 90’s.

[Stringswinger]

I like 10's and 12's (My RE Stealth 12 ER made by Rich sounds great). I never liked 8's or 15's for guitar very much (and not for want of trying) but Henriksen has made me a fan of 6.5 inch speakers (and I never would have guessed that would ever interest me back in the day).

[ruger9]

Anyway, I can say from trying several 12"s speakers is that I've never played one I love more than a 10" with good bass response.

THIS is correct. All your "science" aside (and please don't take that as snark, it is not intended as such), my experiences (over 35 years) run counter to yours. But yes: you DON'T LIKE 12" speakers. Cool. Viva la difference!

I don't draw those lines. I either like an amp or I don't. I don't care what size the speaker(s) it has. Or what type of power tubes. I have have had and still own speakers with both 12" and 10" speakers. And they all sound great. Differences in sound comes down to many design elements, the cabinet size being a large element. For example, I love my Supro Tremoverb (10"), but it's a small cabinet- smaller than a Princeton Reverb even. It is far more directional than my bigger-cabinet amps, and it is also more directional than my Princeton Reverb with a 12" speaker in it.