The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I had a little time this afternoon, so I decided to rise to the challenge and play the same tune FS on the same guitar through my Blu 6 and my SBUS / Toob Metro BG. The amps were side by side on my studio bench. I recorded them both with my TASCAM DR40x using its internal mics. It's sitting on the mic stand in front of the amps on the bench. The guitar is my brand new Eastman Jazz Elite 16 from Guitars 'n Jazz. I'll post an NGD when I get everything together, since I just got it on Wednesday [spoiler: this is the best playing, most beautiful, and overall wonderful guitar I ever had!]. I normalized both tracks and tried to get them as close as possible to each other for both volume and character. Please ignore the clams - right now, I spend most of my playing time making sure I don't ding this beauty. Juggling the mouse, keyboard and recorder while dodging the desk and keyboard tray and trying not to knock the recorder over is intimidating, as is navigating the poles, stands, chairs, keyboards etc (and the drum kit on stage). I'm sure I'll get over it and reach the same equilibrium I have with my other gigging guitars. But it did make last night's gig a bit stressful.

    I tried to match volumes, but I didn't play the tune exactly the same way on both, and I think the average SPL on the Blu is at least 2 or 3 dB below the SBUS / Metro BG. But they're close enough to get a very good idea of what each will do with the same program material. [EDIT: I went back to the raw files and matched mean volumes as closely as I could. The averages appear to be within +/-1 dB, so any variance is in my playing. I also realize now that I had a bit more reverb on the Blu than on the SBUS, which I can't go back and fix without re-recording.]

    The players:

    Blu 6 & SBUS / Toob Metro BG - side by side audio comparison-blu_v_sbus-jpeg

    The tracks:

    Blu6:



    SBUS / TOOB Metro:

    Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 11-18-2022 at 08:50 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    The blue sounds really good! Thanks for posting this.

  4. #3

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    What is "SBUS"?

    Google search didn't help, just got lots of stuff about "strategic business units".

    Nice playing on your demos! I have a preference on which recording I prefer, but it doesn't seem worth mentioning.

  5. #4

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    Superblock US

  6. #5

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    Nice playing!

    Both sound fine. When I happened to hear the same phrase on each while AB'ing, they sounded really close. You could have convinced me it was the same rig.

  7. #6

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    Interesting, to me the SBUS/Toob sounds much "bigger" than the Blu (through headphones). Might be due to the Fendery tone stack compared to the flatter Henriksen.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by dconeill
    What is "SBUS”?
    That’s the Quilter Superblock US. It’s an excellent tiny $300 25W class D head with many features. It’s been the subject of several threads and is one of the best “pedal size” amps out there. Velcroed to a Toob Metro, the combo weighs about 6 pounds and fits in a small gym bag.

    Thanks for the kind words. Your opinion is both valuable and welcome. But both amps have great EQ that gives them a wide range of tonality. I set them for the jazz tone I like, but they’re both very adjustable.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Interesting, to me the SBUS/Toob sounds much "bigger" than the Blu (through headphones). Might be due to the Fendery tone stack compared to the flatter Henriksen.
    I do use the SB on its 65 voice for jazz, so that makes sense. But I think I should have upped the bass EQ on the Blu a hint to get them even closer. But I only did it by ear. The “right” way to do this kind of comparison is to equalize both amps for the exact same frequency response and match the volumes, using a signal generator and spectrum analyzer. If I have the time and desire one day, I’ll do that.

    Also keep in mind that the two speakers are totally different designs that benefit from different placement. They live side by side on my recording desk, so that’s how I ran this. But the Toob has a rear vent, so it benefitted from reflections off the wall behind it. The Blu has a bottom vent, so the output from that was diffused 360 degrees and lost in the maze of other stuff on the counter.

    In truth, they both sound fantastic and can be adjusted to most players’ tastes. The Toob / Quilter combo is half the price of the Blu 6, a bit more adjustable, a few pounds lighter, and has a few more features (voicing, cab sim, limiter). The Blu will get significantly louder and drives a second cab easily. It also has BT, so you can play backing tracks through it for practice and background music through it on gig breaks.

    Keep in mind that the Toob Metro will take 125 watts. The SB is a perfect match for it - tiny, versatile and great-sounding. But you can up the game to a more powerful class D head for a lot more sound. I use a DV Mark Raw Dawg 250 with it on bigger gigs, and it makes a joyous noise. But the combo is bigger and heavier than the Blu if you use a bigger head. The difference in output between 25W and 125W is very significant.
    Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 11-19-2022 at 08:58 AM.

  10. #9

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    Nice playing! Both sound great. The SB has more “sparkle” (freq response about 5khz). I think that’s both from the circuit and the open back cab, since you’re getting reflections from the room. The henriksen has fuller mids.

    Im still waiting for my raezers edge cab that I’m putting a celestion gold 10”. It’s a perfect match for the sbus since it emphasizes the low mid range relative to other speakers.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    Nice playing! Both sound great. The SB has more “sparkle” (freq response about 5khz). I think that’s both from the circuit and the open back cab, since you’re getting reflections from the room. The henriksen has fuller mids.

    Im still waiting for my raezers edge cab that I’m putting a celestion gold 10”. It’s a perfect match for the sbus since it emphasizes the low mid range relative to other speakers.
    Thanks! Remember that I have the Blu’s tweeter off. Turning it on adds some sparkle that I don’t usually want for jazz. And the Toob isn’t an open back cab - there’s a tuned, loaded rear port. Rear ports alter the radiation pattern a bit and are sensitive to wall proximity behind them. In my recording, the port sits between one and two diameters in front of the wall. Here’s an observation from a paper I found on this:


    • if a rear-facing port is close enough to the back wall, the wall will increase the effective port length enough to change the box tuning. This may or may not be beneficial in a given situation. Keeping the port two or more port diameters distance away from the wall reduces this effect to negligible (which again may or may not be beneficial).


    And there are cabinets above that counter space. So the sound patterns will be a bit more open with the amps on the floor.

    I put a Jet Tornado Neo in my RE bass 10 cab last year (thanks to Marcwhy!) and it sounds fabulous. It also weighs a few pounds less than it did with the seriously heavy speaker Rich put in it. But even at about 20 pounds, it stays under the piano and my Toobs go out with me. The Toob 10 is its equal (or more) and even the Metro BG is very close.

  12. #11

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    Great sounds on both rigs, and the 7th string can be "felt" with both -- which is cool with such small speakers!

    [Keep in mind a second (@ 8 Ohms) cab can be hooked up to the Toob Metro, too, and the SB can handle down to 4 Ohms, so you can get more sound if you need it!]

  13. #12

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    One big thing about the Blu is that, with the twitter, it can do acoustic guitar as well. That's even helpful for archtop players that prefer an acoustic sound.

  14. #13

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    You have an FRFR variant of the Toob if you want more hi fi top end

    i have both a guitar and frfr voiced metro so I can use whatever works best for the gig with the same amp.

    People inform me that they like combos for some reason.

    As a long time AER and Fender player I’m not seeing why particularly aside from habit and tradition. i see no purpose for them.

    things I would like that AER/henriksen scores on

    - a dual input head like the AER or Henricksen with Xlr input
    - more high end pedal amps that bring out the full potential of Markku’s cabs

    what I want, in fact, is for companies like Henricksen and maybe AER, to get into this market and produce micro amps that have the same features as their combos. And if fender made a tonemaster micro head I would be in there like a shot.

    not super optimistic about this happening lol

    plug a good combo amp into one of Markku’s speakers and you realise the weak link is currently the amps. Quilter SB is good but a little underpowered perhaps. I would be interested to see how his speaker performed with a blu amp, but I would expect it to be very well.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-20-2022 at 12:10 PM.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I would be interested to see how his speaker performed with a Blu amp.
    I really wanted to add that to the comparison. But there’s no obvious way to turn the internal speaker off and use only an external cab. The headphone out is underpowered and the wrong impedance to drive a speaker. I have to try plugging in phones and an external cab, to see if the external jack is live with the internal speaker off for ‘phone use. But I suspect it’s not.

    The SBUS is a bit short on clean power through the Metro. It’s s a great pair for small gigs, but it’s not going to fill a crowded club of moderate size with enough sound to cut through even a trio. But I played a loud blues gig a few weeks ago with it through my 10” Toob, and the increased efficiency of the 10 (Jet Tornado neo, I think) really helped. It stayed clean well into “too loud” territory and should be about equal to a Vibrolux for clean to barely hairy jazz tones.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    [...] But there’s no obvious way to turn the internal speaker off and use only an external cab. The headphone out is underpowered and the wrong impedance to drive a speaker. I have to try plugging in phones and an external cab, to see if the external jack is live with the internal speaker off for ‘phone use. But I suspect it’s not.[...]
    I have a Bud and a SBUS/Toob Metro. My Toob got here before the SBUS, so in my impatience I hooked the Toob up to the Bud, with a dummy 1/4" plug in the headphone jack. It turned off the internal speaker, and I could use the Bud's amp to drive the Toob through the external speaker. Worked well.

    Every time I use the Toob, I have to go through the voices on the SBUS to see which one I like on that particular day.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    .

    People inform me that they like combos for some reason.
    One thing fewer to carry, one fewer cable to forget, one fewer connection to set up on stage. (Same number of bells to answer and eggs to fry, however.) Not a dramatic difference, but every bit of simplification and convenience helps.

  18. #17

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    As I've said before, everything is a compromise of some sort. Where to compromise is a personal decision. I can see both sides of the combo/head argument, and both have advantages and disadvantages. I confess that I have no firm preference either way. I own and use both.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    One thing fewer to carry, one fewer cable to forget, one fewer connection to set up on stage. (Same number of bells to answer and eggs to fry, however.) Not a dramatic difference, but every bit of simplification and convenience helps.
    \

    Before I played with a pedal board I liked head and cab. I could put the cab where ever it would sound best and I could still have the controls at hand. Now that I can control things from the pedalboard, I rarely touch the amp, so I like the simplicity of a combo amp and I can put it where ever I like. I tend to like the speaker relatively far away if I can do that -- my feeling is that it's easier to hear myself in the band context that way. If it's too close, I may drown out the other players. Or I may not play loud enough for the room.

    I'm informed that the speaker cable only looks like a guitar cable. In fact, it's got larger wires and you shouldn't use a guitar cable to connect the speaker to the head. Is that still correct for most rigs? If it is, that means I have to carry a speaker cable and a spare and keep them straight in a hurry and maybe in the dark.

  20. #19

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    I see the Bud6/Blu6 as both a head (when I pair it with one of my RE Cabs) and a stand alone combo.

    They have the convenience of a combo and the versatility of a head/speaker rig when I need it.

    Thank you Henriksen for solving that dilemma for me once and for all!

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    One thing fewer to carry, one fewer cable to forget, one fewer connection to set up on stage. (Same number of bells to answer and eggs to fry, however.) Not a dramatic difference, but every bit of simplification and convenience helps.
    The advantages seem to outweigh these disadvantages as far as I'm concerned. For portability, being able to split the weight is incredibly helpful on the old back and shoulders, for example. In a big city where driving is expensive and rarely fun, having a situation where you can easily and happily go on foot is worth an awful lot to me. (Of course a venue with a house Fender Twin is even better, but...)

    TBF if I drove everywhere I'd probably use of a small fender combo (maybe a DRRI) or a Tonemaster Twin (love those things) TBF. They do still sound better. But that's not what's on the table most times. (Besides I could always get an old school cab and use that with a small head; the flexibility of set up allows a few possibilities.)

    OTOH none of these solutions (including the Bud 6) allow you to plug in a singer, which is a consideration.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The advantages seem to outweigh these disadvantages as far as I'm concerned. For portability, being able to split the weight is incredibly helpful on the old back and shoulders, for example. In a big city where driving is expensive and rarely fun, having a situation where you can easily and happily go on foot is worth an awful lot to me. (Of course a venue with a house Fender Twin is even better, but...)
    If we’re talking about big/heavy amps, then, yes, separate components have advantages. But i thought the comparison here was between something like the SBUS/Toob and Henriksen Blu/Bud or DVMLJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    TBF if I drove everywhere I'd probably use of a small fender combo (maybe a DRRI) or a Tonemaster Twin (love those things) TBF. They do still sound better. But that's not what's on the table most times. (Besides I could always get an old school cab and use that with a small head; the flexibility of set up allows a few possibilities.)
    My typical situation is a gig or jam session in a small restaurant/bar with a tiny corner set aside as a stage. For that, a small light combo allows me to carry my guitar as a backpack (with all the accessories in its pouches) and the amp in one hand, and be able to open a door or swipe through a subway turnstile without having to put anything down, and to get on and off stage quickly. One more thing to carry is feasible, but less optimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    OTOH none of these solutions (including the Bud 6) allow you to plug in a singer, which is a consideration.
    If I’m plugging in a singer (usually me) and there’s no PA, that means I’m also bringing a mic stand, mic, and cable, which puts me into hand cart territory. Once there, I have a mini-PA (TC Helicon VoiceSolo), and a larger combo amp comes into play. But that’s a rarity, and I don’t like the sound of PA-style guitar combos. I’d rather not tie my guitar sound to a vocal solution. In the end it’s horses for courses, and I can see the value of separate amp and cabinet. But I have actually thought this through.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm informed that the speaker cable only looks like a guitar cable. In fact, it's got larger wires and you shouldn't use a guitar cable to connect the speaker to the head. Is that still correct for most rigs?
    Yes it is. A speaker cable has to have thick enough conductors to safely pass power in watts with minimal resistance. And shielding is not necessary or usual, although there are shielded speaker cables and in locations with high electrical or RFI noise, they do help. But most are just simple big gauge copper wires (in comparison with guitar cables). A pickup’s output is milliwatts. So signal cables need low capacitance and shielding but do not have to carry high power. They’d heat up and sap power if used as speaker cables.
    Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 11-21-2022 at 09:53 AM.

  24. #23

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    What I usually use for speaker cable is a span of heavy power cable, available at home improvement stores or just cut from a heavy extension cord. I prefer 12 gauge, although 16 is heavy enough. It generally comes with three conductors - hot, neutral, and ground - but only two are needed, I just snip the ground conductor and don't use it. Any two of the conductors is fine, just make sure you connect the same two at both ends.

  25. #24

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    First I love everything about the playing. That definitely helps. You've also made my day a lot easier. I just finished buying an identical rig to your Superblock/Toob combo so makes me feel good to hear it sounding so good and especially the way it's handling the low end. I doubt if I could say whether I preferred one or the other. They sounded different but they both sounded great.

  26. #25

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    With a finger deep in the pie, I shouldn't chime in. Yet, a couple of remarks.

    1) On separate cab/amp vs combo: As an active gigger, I subscribe to the convenience factor. Therefore, all my cabs come with a dock plate with high-quality hook-and-loop fastening strips for the amp. So you have a virtual combo that fits in a carry bag or backpack as such. Over five years down and with over 550 cabs made, no-one has reported a problem or asked for new fastener strips, except for seconds for a new amp.

    2) On amps: I agree on the Quilter Superblock being close to the ideal but not quite there. Quilter people have told me that they can't pack more power into the format. So be it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with a 101R successor, with voicings and connectivity from newer models. Also, I've enticed them to create an alternative to the Henriksen Bud head at half the bulk and price: two independent channels and phantom-powered XLR input for the singer. Mission impossible?

    3) Polish amp maker Taurus has collaborated with NY jazz guitarist Greg Ruggiero for a new, jazz-friendly version of their small floor amp. Actually, in 2011, they were the first with the concept. A new model with Greg's mods would require a minimum order of 30 units. Greg has gone through all the micro-amps on the market and says this is the best-sounding. Any innerest out there?