Fender ToneMaster Princeton!

[yebdox]

You guys wanna know the other funny thing? A PRRI weighs 34 lbs, but a pine cabinet, hand-wired princeton reverb should only weigh about 27 lbs. My vintage 1964 Princeton reverb and headstrong lil king both weigh that much with alnico speakers.

You wanna know another thing? My Tungsten Crema Wheat (20w version of 5e3 deluxe) only weighs 24 lbs and is WAY louder than I could need for any gig.

That’s interesting to me. I always assumed that a 20 watt tube amp would be too crunchy for most jazz gigs, which is why my minimum wattage range is 35 to 40 for the headroom. It really works well for you?

[omphalopsychos]

Absolutely. This particular one requires a lot of gain before breaking up.

[yebdox]

Thanks. Now I will have to put some version of a 5e3 back on the wish
list. I assumed it would just be a lower volume tone novelty for my purposes

[omphalopsychos]

Note: my 5e3 is a tungsten crema wheat. It is specially designed for more headroom and volume and a more controlled bass response. A typical 5e3 is only 12 watts I think. I’m not confident a typical 5e3 would get a clean tone at concert volume.

Crema Wheat — Tungsten Amplification

[bluenote61]

Note: my 5e3 is a tungsten crema wheat. It is specially designed for more headroom and volume and a more controlled bass response. A typical 5e3 is only 12 watts I think. I’m not confident a typical 5e3 would get a clean tone at concert volume.

With a stock 5e3 you will hardly get a clean tone at levels above practicing level. If you are a blueser who likes a compressed midrange tone with a lot of dirt in it, then its your choice.
And, the 5e3 was designed for single coil Fender guitars. With a humbucker, especially from a archtop, the stock amp tends very early to overdrive and sound farty.
There are lot of mods described in the internet to get a cleaner tone with more headroom. At the end you will get a different amp after all that mods.
That was the reason I sold my DIY 5e3 clone and built a PR clone instead which is since years my amp for practicing at home. I love that mellow tone of the PR which separates it from the bigger Fender amps. For gigs I use the 40W amp as posted earlier.

[omphalopsychos]

Agreed. I wouldn’t consider this 5e3 one for 5e3 purists. With the mods, it’s more like a Harvard an steroids (tone-wise, not circuit-wise). The bass is much tighter and it’s clean halfway up the dial (which is much louder than a Princeton reverb on 10). A lot of the rockers on other forums complained they couldn’t get it to break up at gig volume. That’s what got me interested.

[yebdox]

Note: my 5e3 is a tungsten crema wheat. It is specially designed for more headroom and volume and a more controlled bass response. A typical 5e3 is only 12 watts I think. I’m not confident a typical 5e3 would get a clean tone at concert volume.

Crema Wheat — Tungsten Amplification

Thanks for pointing that out... closer to a Deluxe in output, then. Supports my original supposition.

I made the mistake several years ago of trying to play a gig with a funk fusion band with my (then) new Vintage Sound Deluxe.... Big Mistake. Since upgraded the tranny and tubes, still a bit of a stretch at 35 watts. Probably would have been fine for a normal jazz gig, but I'm a pedal guy, would rather have extra headroom that I don't use, than need it and wind up sounding like I'm playing through a trash can

[EastwoodMike]

It’s pretty easy to get a stereo set up, even for us minions. All you need is a. Lehle amp switcher pedal.

cheaper yet- a Boss LS-2. One of the most versatile little toys I have.

[ccroft]

...but I'm a pedal guy, would rather have extra headroom that I don't use, than need it and wind up sounding like I'm playing through a trash can

"Try the JRockett Trash-Can, for that back alley fonk!"

[Herbie]

cheaper yet- a Boss LS-2. One of the most versatile little toys I have.

Very versatile, but usually You’ll get hum in some stages with two amps. According what I have read the Boss does not kill that ground loop hum. Lehle has isolation transformers and zero hum.

[floatingpickup]

With a stock 5e3 you will hardly get a clean tone at levels above practicing level. If you are a blueser who likes a compressed midrange tone with a lot of dirt in it, then its your choice.
And, the 5e3 was designed for single coil Fender guitars. With a humbucker, especially from a archtop, the stock amp tends very early to overdrive and sound farty.
There are lot of mods described in the internet to get a cleaner tone with more headroom. At the end you will get a different amp after all that mods.
That was the reason I sold my DIY 5e3 clone and built a PR clone instead which is since years my amp for practicing at home. I love that mellow tone of the PR which separates it from the bigger Fender amps. For gigs I use the 40W amp as posted earlier.

I had two original tweed Fender 5E3 Deluxes. One was a ‘59 and the other was a ‘60. I tried using them on gigs with my archtops. Although they had beautiful mid range tones, they just weren’t clean enough for me, even in a small club. I ended up selling them both. When I see the prices of those amps today, I wish I had just put them away for a few years. Anyway, I also had a BF ‘67 Princeton Reverb at the same time, and it was more useful, as it had more headroom. The scooped mid sound was not my favorite, but it didn’t break up as much and the reverb was wonderful. Unfortunately, that one’s gone too.
Keith

[D'Aquisto Fan]

I had two original tweed Fender 5E3 Deluxes. One was a ‘59 and the other was a ‘60. I tried using them on gigs with my archtops. Although they had beautiful mid range tones, they just weren’t clean enough for me, even in a small club. I ended up selling them both. When I see the prices of those amps today, I wish I had just put them away for a few years. Anyway, I also had a BF ‘67 Princeton Reverb at the same time, and it was more useful, as it had more headroom. The scooped mid sound was not my favorite, but it didn’t break up as much and the reverb was wonderful. Unfortunately, that one’s gone too.
Keith

I agree with Keith's assessment of the tweed Deluxe. I had one years ago and I never really bonded with it. I used to be a Fender blackface only player. Then I got a tweed Super and I bought a couple more larger tweeds than the Deluxe before prices went nuts and I sold off all my blackface amps except my Princeton Reverb, which I still love. I don't care for the scooped mid sound that much anymore. Although the Princeton Reverb doesn't sound as scooped as my Twin, Vibrolux, Deluxe, etc. did. Tweeds and archtops can sound great mixed and matched properly. Check out the Will Sellenraad video below.

[Stringswinger]

What makes the Tonemaster line so interesting is that Fender is preserving a market for it's classic amps in an era where tubes may get harder to find. There are what, three tube factories in the world? NOS tube supplies get lower in quantity and higher in price every year. Western Electric talks about starting USA tube production for amps, but I will believe it when I see it and fear the worst when it comes to their pricing.

I think the Tonemaster amps sound different than the PCB reissues which sound different than the originals. And changing tubes, caps and transformers changes the sound as well.

A Princeton sounds different than a Deluxe, Super or Twin. Some of us like the Princeton sound. While I am quite content with my 1964 Noverb Princeton (and I have a stash of NOS tubes to get me through whatever time I have left), others might like a Princeton that eliminates the tube hassle and is even lighter than the originals (which are lighter than the reissues).

I suspect this amp will sell well.

[Litterick]

No doubt Fender felt threatened by the modellers, which can produce increasingly accurate Fender sounds, as well as those of Fender's rivals. So Fender leapt into unknown technological territory, designing models of its own amplifiers. Whatever the modellers have, they do not have Fender's brand and everything associated with it.

If I were to give more than a moment's thought to buying a ToneMaster, I would be wondering how long they will last. My hand-wired Princeton Reverb II is heavy and requires valves to work, but all its electronic parts are replaceable. What will happen when a ToneMaster's boards wear out?

[bluenote61]

If I were to give more than a moment's thought to buying a ToneMaster, I would be wondering how long they will last. My hand-wired Princeton Reverb II is heavy and requires valves to work, but all its electronic parts are replaceable. What will happen when a ToneMaster's boards wear out?

That’s a point to think about. A Fender amp, as long as the components were handwired on that waxed board up to around 1984 I think, is easy to service (however the board itself sometimes makes problems with conductance). They were built like a tank.
(The later PCB amps, e.g. Blues Deluxe, Hot Rod Deluxe, are also serviceable but with more effort required. And according to my experience they need more service due to less robustness compared to the older blackface or silverface amps.)

If I look into these new amps built mostly in east asia, I see a PCB board equipped with those micro-sized SMD components. They are not built for servicing. And how long will they work properly? Also 40 years and more like the old Fenders?
It would be interesting to have a look inside the Tonemaster amps. They are not a bargain, hence I would expect not to be forced to throw them into the garbage bin or bring it to electronic recycling once one quits its work.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

changing tubes, caps and transformers changes the sound as well.

And it’s only a matter of time before those Tone Masters etc have switchable models for tubes, caps, etc. It’s not a leap to add a tube model switch (“6L6 / EL34 / EL84 / KT88 / octal”).

[wzpgsr]

And it’s only a matter of time before those Tone Masters etc have switchable models for tubes, caps, etc. It’s not a leap to add a tube model switch (“6L6 / EL34 / EL84 / KT88 / octal”).

Maybe, but I don't think that's a given. They already make chameleon-like do-it-all (allegedly) modeling amps. At this point, Fender's strategy with the Tone Master series appears to be preserving the known differentiation between models looking forward to the tubeless future. Remains to be see if this will be a viable long-term marketing approach.

[jorgemg1984]

And it’s only a matter of time before those Tone Masters etc have switchable models for tubes, caps, etc. It’s not a leap to add a tube model switch (“6L6 / EL34 / EL84 / KT88 / octal”).

I don't think so. Up until the Tone Master series, the entire modelling market (from pedals to amps) was made in the "let's pul all we can in here" logic. On a good modeler you have so many parameters it makes your head hurt. Fender has been the first, as far as I know, to go in the opposite direction - an amp that models an existing amp and does nothing else. I think this approach has made them sell a lot of Tone Master amps to people who dislike modelling and too many options in the first place. I would be very surprised it they changed their policy, but who knows? The first Tone Master amp is already a few years old I think, and in all this time they only released one big firmware update to deal with reverb mix and the bright switch. All else has remained the same, and I bet it will.

[Doctor Jeff]

No doubt Fender felt threatened by the modellers, which can produce increasingly accurate Fender sounds, as well as those of Fender's rivals. So Fender leapt into unknown technological territory, designing models of its own amplifiers. Whatever the modellers have, they do not have Fender's brand and everything associated with it.

If I were to give more than a moment's thought to buying a ToneMaster, I would be wondering how long they will last. My hand-wired Princeton Reverb II is heavy and requires valves to work, but all its electronic parts are replaceable. What will happen when a ToneMaster's boards wear out?

Agree 100% with your first part.

Are modern Solid State and computer-controlled amps necessarily less long-lasting than older hand-wired, tube models though?

Sometimes primitive technology is simple and robust, but sometimes it just lasts longer because it fails at a predictable rate and can be (or was at least in the past) replaced easily and relatively cheaply. There are many examples from the electronic world such as tube TVs, guitar amps and stereos, modular computer systems, as well as automobiles, with their finicky carburetors, drum brakes which required constant attention to fluids and bleeding, and bias-ply tires that would flatten on a whim.

I haven't had a catastrophic failure or major repair to a guitar, amplifier, TV, stereo, computer, or car that I've bought in the last 20 years. Maybe lucky, but maybe the companies just know how to build complex systems better.

[jim777]

No doubt Fender felt threatened by the modellers, which can produce increasingly accurate Fender sounds, as well as those of Fender's rivals. So Fender leapt into unknown technological territory, designing models of its own amplifiers. Whatever the modellers have, they do not have Fender's brand and everything associated with it.

If I were to give more than a moment's thought to buying a ToneMaster, I would be wondering how long they will last. My hand-wired Princeton Reverb II is heavy and requires valves to work, but all its electronic parts are replaceable. What will happen when a ToneMaster's boards wear out?

I hear this a lot, and while I certainly don't know the answer, my band's bass player still uses his Pearce preamp at practice every week and at every gig, and Pearce closed their doors in '93. There are tons of digital/solid state amps out there well over 20 years old.

[stevo58]

If the boards are wave-soldered SMD, forget it; repairs are at the replace-a-board level, and who knows how long boards will be available. Unless you or someone you know (of) has a hand steady enough and patience long enough to work with SMD. It wasn’t designed to be repaired at a component level (unlike the old tag boards, which were designed to be repairable). SMD exists to make manufacturing as cheap and quick as possible.

I’ve never seen the guts of a TM, though. Maybe they use full-size components on an old-school PCB. You can repair that, but you will still be limited by the availability of the chips, some of which are certainly custom-programmed.

Edit:
I found a gut shot of the TM Deluxe. Pretty much SMD. The power supply and power amp may be standard modules.

https://i.redd.it/bazztiixspm41.jpg

[jim777]

For me, dropping from the 83 pounds of my Mark IV to the 34 pounds of the TM Twin is win enough. If it lasts 2 or 3 years, which is likely all I want to continue doing in a rock band, I'll consider it a wash. They've already been out for two years and I don't see many "My TM Died!" threads anywhere, though it certainly could be happening without my knowing it. If they were dying after 2 years of gigs it would have been a big deal on TDPRI and the Gear Page at least I would think.

[InsufferableRhythm]

The power supply and power amplifier are an integrated unit -- an ICEpower module.

Surface-mount component level repair isn't a big deal these days.

All the components/modules are fungible. The sauce is in the software. Fundamentally, these amplifiers are Linux boxes connected to analog I/O.

You can run the firmware on a Raspberry Pi.

There's some indication in the firmware that the software model (Princeton, Deluxe, Super or Twin) is selected by a jumper. I'd be interested to see close-ups.

[Litterick]

Agree 100% with your first part.

Are modern Solid State and computer-controlled amps necessarily less long-lasting than older hand-wired, tube models though?

Sometimes primitive technology is simple and robust, but sometimes it just lasts longer because it fails at a predictable rate and can be (or was at least in the past) replaced easily and relatively cheaply. There are many examples from the electronic world such as tube TVs, guitar amps and stereos, modular computer systems, as well as automobiles, with their finicky carburetors, drum brakes which required constant attention to fluids and bleeding, and bias-ply tires that would flatten on a whim.

I haven't had a catastrophic failure or major repair to a guitar, amplifier, TV, stereo, computer, or car that I've bought in the last 20 years. Maybe lucky, but maybe the companies just know how to build complex systems better.

I know little about these things but, not so long ago, I was thinking of buying a Laney Lionheart – mostly because they are blue and British. But then I saw this video, in which a man who seems to know what he is talking about says (at 7:40), "if you expect to get three to four years out of it, then something goes wrong, meh: you knew what you were signing up for, and you got your three or four years out of it." He does go on to say it may last fifteen or twenty years, but I had been expecting at least that. I decided instead to buy a 7-watt Hiwatt, expecting it to last many years, and that any parts that fail could be replaced with standard components. This plan depends on manufacture of those components to continue for a couple of decades.

[lawson-stone]

These tweed Sweetwater Princetons with the 12 inch CR speaker are pretty darn great, and they are on sale for under $1K.

Attachment 96532Attachment 96533

I love my Tone Master Twin Reverb, but I also have this exact Princeton Reverb Re-Issue and I utterly love it. It's a lovely amp and if I were going to pay that much, I'd want the tone master to have the 12" speaker, be lighter, and do the 15 watts. the Tone Master makes sense for the Twin Reverb, but for the Princeton, maybe just the convenience of not having to worry about tubes? I don't know.