"Poor Mans" Pat Metheny Sound?

[kuau]

Has anyone found a "poor mans" way to get the Pat Metheny tone with out using 3 amps and multiple digital delays?

[Jazzophobe]

I just run my archtops (for example) into a Lexicon MPX 100 which I purchased for less than $100.00 used. It has a dual effects function where I can apply a slight amount of chorus with some reverb...I then run THAT through an old Delta Labs Effectron II digital delay, and MAN, it's close to what Pat gets. I don't have the money for a couple of used Lexicon PCM 90's (which would probably set me back $15-1600.00). All of the above goes through either a Roland JC 77, or a Fender Blues Jr. Just my two cents...I'd be curious to know what others are doing.

[cosmic gumbo]

I'm happy with using a chorus and delay to dial up a PM sound.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I like Pat's playing, but who else here would like him to get a style makeover? Lose the chorus and get a haircut?

[Flat]

I read an interview with Metheny years ago in which he said--if I recall correctly--that he doesn't use a chorus effect. Said he doesn't like how they alter the pitch. Instead, he's using multiple delay boxes set to different delay times, and sent stage left and right and maybe center.

Please take that with a grain of salt. It's been quite a few years. Anyone know for sure?

[Jake Hanlon]

No, Metheny doesn't use chorus. It's the effect of the multiple amps with different delay settings.

Also, the tone he uses now live at least is much dryer and more acoustic like. I like his sound always, but the times I've seen him live lately was the best sound he's had imo.

[billkath]

No, Metheny doesn't use chorus. It's the effect of the multiple amps with different delay settings.

Also, the tone he uses now live at least is much dryer and more acoustic like. I like his sound always, but the times I've seen him live lately was the best sound he's had imo.

Not quite. What he is doing is going into 2 seperate delay lines. He's modulating the actual delayed signal in each unit by sweeping a sine wave of low depth and frequency. Internally in each unit, the delay/modulated sound is blended back in with the original sound.He THEN goes to two seperate amps, adds his reverb, EQ and stuff.
Which, in effect, IS what a chorus pedal does. It's like a stereo chorus, but one that he has huge control of the parameters of. The difference to a stereo chorus pedal is that the 2 delay and pitch-shift-affected sounds are blended together, and various components of the sound are sent to seperate channels-wheras he keeps them totally seperate.

[Jazzophobe]

Not quite. What he is doing is going into 2 seperate delay lines. He's modulating the actual delayed signal in each unit by sweeping a sine wave of low depth and frequency. Internally in each unit, the delay/modulated sound is blended back in with the original sound.He THEN goes to two seperate amps, adds his reverb, EQ and stuff.
Which, in effect, IS what a chorus pedal does. It's like a stereo chorus, but one that he has huge control of the parameters of. The difference to a stereo chorus pedal is that the 2 delay and pitch-shift-affected sounds are blended together, and various components of the sound are sent to seperate channels-wheras he keeps them totally seperate.

Chorus is kind of a combination of delays anyway...Metheny is able to control the amount of delays by adjusting the timing in milliseconds. Unfortunately, that's what you pay for with Lexicon PCM series, and I don't have that flexibility, soooo...I just use the chorus function on my MPX 100 with a little reverb and delay...a poor man's Metheny set up

[billkath]

There is a way to get the PM sound, but you do need a stereo amp for best results. Not like a guitar stereo amp, where the signal is split-I mean a true stereo amp.
But you can do it with just one amp-just not get the full stereo effect.-you'd need 2 digital delay pedals, 2 mono chorus pedals, a three way splitter, and a mini mono mixer.
First- Put the guitar into the splitter.

Splitter line 1 output-to delay pedal 1. Set Delay 1 to 14ms, No feedback, 100% wet. Feed that to chorus pedal-Low frequency rate-low depth-100% wet. Feed that to input 1 on the mini mixer.

Splitter line 2 output-to delay pedal 2. Set Delay 2 to 22ms, No feedback, 100% wet. Feed that to chorus pedal-Low frequency rate-low depth-100% wet. Feed that to input 2 on the mini mixer.

Splitter line 3 output---Direct to mini mixer.

Output of mono mini mixer to input on your amp. Blend the two effected inputs to the mini mixer to taste with the clean signal.(that's the bit Pat doesn't do-he goes to three amps, and sets their volumes accordingly).
Of course-you lose the wide stereo field-but it's a compromise.

A better way is to find a single stereo effects unit that lets you use Dual mono processing of 2 chains of delay and chorus and gives you access to the parameters via midi. The cheaper Lexicons-even the MPX110- let you do this, if you know how to use Sysex over MIDI. Through sysex you'd be able to easily change the internal parameters of the delay and chorus algo's--the things that need to be changed, like rates, feedback, resonance, that are not accessible any other way.That'd let you have a mono in-stereo out just like Methany has his set up, just go into an amp that has 2 channels, or a mono out, even.

[fep]

Also, the tone he uses now live at least is much dryer and more acoustic like. I like his sound always, but the times I've seen him live lately was the best sound he's had imo.

I saw Metheny last night

His tone is different now as Jake says. He has two guitar chords (at least from my distance - about 20th row they looked like guitar chords) out of his electric - two seperate jacks.

The sound, it sounds like an electric jazz box mixed with a microphone on a jazz box.

Could he be doing that with his regular pu plus something like an acoustic piezo pu and blending the two?

[billkath]

Yep-maybe a built in condensor mic with his humbucker. Some excellent little condensors out there for just that. Or perhaps he's doing what Townsend does with his Strats, and using Graphtech Ghosts, along with his Strat PU's. Townsend doesn't use 2 cables-just one "stereo" cable- one conductor for the Strat, and the other from the Ghosts. The Ghosts don't give that quack that regular piezos have-I use them on my Variax 700HT.

[kuau]

There is a way to get the PM sound, but you do need a stereo amp for best results. Not like a guitar stereo amp, where the signal is split-I mean a true stereo amp.
But you can do it with just one amp-just not get the full stereo effect.-you'd need 2 digital delay pedals, 2 mono chorus pedals, a three way splitter, and a mini mono mixer.
First- Put the guitar into the splitter.

Splitter line 1 output-to delay pedal 1. Set Delay 1 to 14ms, No feedback, 100% wet. Feed that to chorus pedal-Low frequency rate-low depth-100% wet. Feed that to input 1 on the mini mixer.

Splitter line 2 output-to delay pedal 2. Set Delay 2 to 22ms, No feedback, 100% wet. Feed that to chorus pedal-Low frequency rate-low depth-100% wet. Feed that to input 2 on the mini mixer.

Splitter line 3 output---Direct to mini mixer.

Output of mono mini mixer to input on your amp. Blend the two effected inputs to the mini mixer to taste with the clean signal.(that's the bit Pat doesn't do-he goes to three amps, and sets their volumes accordingly).
Of course-you lose the wide stereo field-but it's a compromise.

A better way is to find a single stereo effects unit that lets you use Dual mono processing of 2 chains of delay and chorus and gives you access to the parameters via midi. The cheaper Lexicons-even the MPX110- let you do this, if you know how to use Sysex over MIDI. Through sysex you'd be able to easily change the internal parameters of the delay and chorus algo's--the things that need to be changed, like rates, feedback, resonance, that are not accessible any other way.That'd let you have a mono in-stereo out just like Methany has his set up, just go into an amp that has 2 channels, or a mono out, even.

Besides the MPX 110 what else would do the job? Would a MX200 work?

[billkath]

I'm not sure. It's set up differently, as it has 2 seperate processers, and doesn't seem to have presets for chains/Dual FX. However-you could make a job by setting one "side" as a multi tap delay, and the other "side" as a chorus. By midi CC or sysex you should be able to control the delay times seperately, if the are 2 tap, and then feed them into the chorus-should be close enough.

[fep]

Pat Metheny said: Like the [Acoustic Model] 134 [amp] always was, the output of the Digitech [2101 DSP guitar preamp] is run into 2 Lexicon Prime-Time digital delay lines, one on my left at 14 MS delay, one on my right at 26 MS delay. Each delay has a very slight “pitch bend” controlled by the VCO — sine wave — inside the Prime-Time. This is what gives it the “chorused” thing that I guess I would have to say I was the first to use extensively in jazz, and that seemed to have influenced a lot of other guys to do the same. Only thing, I HATE the way “chorus boxes” sound. My sound is mostly the “straight” 134/Digitech line, which is behind me with NO PITCH BEND, which gets blended IN THE AIR with the two DISCRETE delay pitch bends, which are much softer than the “straight” amp volume, to get a bigger sound. I HATE when I hear the “pitch bend” and the straight mixed together and coming out of the same speaker. It drives me crazy.

Pat Metheny when he does this is creating a chorus effect, a sophisticated one but by definition a chorus, he is delaying the signal and slightly altering the pitch for his left and right speakers.

So it seems true that he didn't use a 'chorus box'; but he did use chorus as an effect.

[billkath]

Exactly.

He's just not mixing the straight sound with the Chorus'd sound. Also- The delay times he's using are so slight that the effect of them is to thicken, not delay.

[kuau]

I'm not sure. It's set up differently, as it has 2 seperate processers, and doesn't seem to have presets for chains/Dual FX. However-you could make a job by setting one "side" as a multi tap delay, and the other "side" as a chorus. By midi CC or sysex you should be able to control the delay times seperately, if the are 2 tap, and then feed them into the chorus-should be close enough.

thanks for the info. I better just look for a used mpx 110 sounds like the way to go

[billkath]

thanks for the info. I better just look for a used mpx 110 sounds like the way to go

If you like. But-the one you mentioned will probably work just as well, and you also get the benefit on your one of using it as a VST effect on your computer DAW. Think long and hard before investing. Borrow, if you can, different bits of kit to see which suits your needs.

Another way to do it is to just get a digital delay pedal and a chorus. Or even-just a bloody good stereo chorus-even better.

See-Methany is only using the delay component to thicken his sound so that he doesn't need to use as much of the VCO controlled pitchshift. He is really making his own stereo chorus pedal, though he doesn't see it that way(or perhaps he does). As you won't be seperating left, right and clean, there NO reason to be going exactly his route.

Remember-he has his set up so that he hears the non-effected sound behind him. You-the listener? You just hear a chorus. So-Think on before throwing money away!!!

[cosmic gumbo]

I'm a poor man, and using one amp, a chorus and delay will get as close to his older signature sound as some expensive set up.

[Jazzophobe]

thanks for the info. I better just look for a used mpx 110 sounds like the way to go

I have the MPX 100 in my rack for guitar effects, however, prior to using that, I was using (and still use) an MX 200 in my studio rack and was getting great Metheny type sounds! I think the MX 200 can be found used for about $100.00 also. I also have an LXP 15 that I'm still trying to figure out...it was a little more expensive (and for some reason, probably my fault, seems to make more noise than the other two...). This is a good thread...some great ideas are coming out of here. My latest thing is trying to find a Yamaha UD stomp pedal (developed to get that very unique Holdsworth chorused sound) very rare apparently (expensive too ...I'd like to use this with my solid bodies....

[billkath]

Yep-you'll find a preset program group on most of the Lex M series called Detune. There's a good few Detune presets. Detune is like a very mild pitchshifting of a delay-exactly what you are looking for.

[cosmic gumbo]

Detune is Mike Stern's signature sound.

[itsall4you]

The only thing might be if you just use one amp with a lot of chorus, iit might become muddy.

I suggest you use a separate amp for a clean sound then another one or two for the chorus sound. This way, it doesn't get muddy because the clean sound is a 'real' sound even though there might be a lot more chorus. You still get the definition this way

[Flat]

Pat Metheny when he does this is creating a chorus effect, a sophisticated one but by definition a chorus, he is delaying the signal and slightly altering the pitch for his left and right speakers.

So it seems true that he didn't use a 'chorus box'; but he did use chorus as an effect.

Yes, after reading here and googling around a bit, I agree about the chorus effect. I suppose what he must have said was that he wasn't using a chorus pedal--but as you describe, he is essentially creating the effect since there is an element of pitch bending involved (in addition to the temporal delays).

I saw him Monday night doing the Orchestrion thing at Disney Hall in L.A. (which he described during the show as his favorite venue to play in the world!)

I'm not sure if it was the hall or a refined rig, but his sound was excellent, imho. Probably the best I've ever heard him. Even better than with his trio in the same hall several years ago.

I'm still trying to digest the whole Orchestrion thing.

[kuau]

Thanks for all the responses and ideas, I have to concur with FLAT,
I saw Pat play last Saturday in Mesa, AZ, his sound was amazing, best I have ever heard, I think he is at the top of his game now and plays with such conviction and confidence.

[peterk1]

TC Electronic's Nova System might get you in the ballpark for small $. Hook up two amps. Dual delay times - mix so that one delay gets mostly sent to one amp and the other goes the other way. Attach an expression pedal and control both the shorter of the of the two delays with that and control the longer one via taps on the Nova. You'll have 3 guitars blending together in glorious stereo. A lot easier than having two units and two different paths.