20 vs. 21 frets?

**Topper Roth** · 10-29-2022, 10:47 AM

Can anyone enlighten me as to why some archtop builds have 20 frets and others have 21? (I'm sure there are other numbers, too...) Is the number of frets typically related to scale length, i.e., with a longer scale, there is "room" for more frets? What effects, if any, does the difference between 20 and 21 frets have on sound, playability, etc.?

**sgosnell** · 10-29-2022, 11:05 AM

It affects where the neck pickup can be placed. The usual numbers, IME, are 20 and 22. On a non-cutaway, any frets beyond 20 are unreachable, and really the last few are unusable, so it makes no sense to put more frets on it. On a cutaway, the upper frets are more reachable, but some players prefer to have the pickup under the harmonic node where the 24th fret would be, and that can be difficult with 22 frets. It's really more aesthetics than practicality, though. I have archtops with both numbers, and I don't use the highest few frets on any of them.

**hotpepper01** · 10-29-2022, 12:42 PM

20 frets are IMHO more than enough. Point me in the direction of a clip of a jazz guitar legend that frequently used the note on the 21st fret on the high E and I will start believing it has some use to a certain extend.

**ccroft** · 10-29-2022, 01:06 PM

There's 21 frets on my 25" scale Eastman. Edge of pickup is 6" from saddle on high E side. There's 22 frets on the 24 3/4" scale Lehmann. Same pickup is 5 3/8" from saddle on the treble side. Both 16" spruce tops, maple backs, ebony board and bridge.

I was surprised there's this much difference. The Lehmann has more ebony in front of the last fret though.

These two animals do sound slightly different, but I think it's due to the heavier top of the Lehmann. It's sounds 'woodier', so it's kinda the opposite of what you might expect with the pickup 7/8" closer to the bridge. Eastman is brighter.

I don't think it matters much. I do play up in that area, but I don't think I've ever missed the high D the Lehmann has. In fact, while I knew they were somehow different, I never counted and measured til this thread.

And then there's the Herb Ellis to consider, with the pickup a fair distance off the end of the board. Maybe an inch?

So this leads to the age-old questions about what gives a carved archtop guitar it's tone. All quite mysterious. Nobody really seems to know. Sum of it's parts and so on. And of course, the picker.

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-29-2022, 02:33 PM

I like 22. I still get the pickup under the node (the polepieces of the HB are right under it), and I do occasionally use that high D.

I think that most players don't use that note and probably don't use the high Db either.

**ronjazz** · 10-29-2022, 02:48 PM

22 on my Gretsches. perfect.

**skykomishone** · 10-29-2022, 03:20 PM

Don't know about the rest of you, but my fingers cross a threshold after which I can't squeeze the cords out, and notes start to sound like they're being played on a thumb piano!

This typically starts to happen above 12, but by 15 to 18 it's a full on difficult. I can do simple things on the gbe up there. That's about it.

But, plenty of real estate on the guitar to keep me busy, and I think the sound is better lower down.

**ccroft** · 10-29-2022, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I like 22. I still get the pickup under the node (the polepieces of the HB are right under it), and I do occasionally use that high D. I think that most players don't use that note and probably don't use the high Db either.

Quite right RP. I corrected my post. (not the first time my memory failed me :-)

I do play single notes & double stops above 14. Some guitars sing up there better than others. I saw Mimi play a bunch of notes up there on the lower strings. Interesting sound she gets, and maybe not unlike Sky's thumb piano. Thumb pianos are OK with me.

**Hammertone** · 10-29-2022, 09:43 PM

Bah, humbug! There's no money up there.

**ccroft** · 10-30-2022, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

Bah, humbug! There's no money up there.

Well... that certainly helps to explain why I don't have any to speak of!

**pingu** · 10-30-2022, 12:30 PM

If we're in F I might play a high G or A very occasionally

Actually I think I did the B&B king high 'ping and gliss down' thing
once on a Bb blues
what's that .... 18th fret

I don't like it up there much

**helios** · 10-30-2022, 01:31 PM

My Holst and Eastman (Jazz Elite) are both 17", 22 frets, and 25" scale length with carved spruce tops. The pole pieces on the Holst are at 18.75" from the nut--the centerpoint between the 12th fret & bridge saddles. The Eastman pickup is 3/16' closer to the pickup (more fret board after the 22nd fret). Both sound great to me--the Eastman is more Gibson-like to my ears, while the Holst is somewhat more acoustic in sound (more attributed to top carve & bracing as I understand).
Thanks for the post-I hadn't really looked at this!

**burchyk** · 10-30-2022, 04:31 PM

I don't really play above A (17th fret?), and G not very often. So for me 21 vs 22 does not matter much. Slightly prefer if the last fret is not an accidental (i.e. C or D not Db), so either 22, 20.

The pro of having more frets is indirect for me.

I enjoy 335s and similar designs for the improved upper fret access, mostly up to 15th fret, even if I don't use the rest.

Second and third benefits are due to the higher neck joint placement.

I tend to notice a tonal change when playing lower or higher than a neck joint, and prefer to move it higher up than the range I use.

Last one is the action adjustment. Truss rod does not really have any effect from the neck joint up. Having the neck joint higher can help to get the bow dialed in perfectly over the whole useable range.

**softjazz** · 10-31-2022, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by sgosnell

It affects where the neck pickup can be placed. The usual numbers, IME, are 20 and 22. On a non-cutaway, any frets beyond 20 are unreachable, and really the last few are unusable, so it makes no sense to put more frets on it. On a cutaway, the upper frets are more reachable, but some players prefer to have the pickup under the harmonic node where the 24th fret would be, and that can be difficult with 22 frets. It's really more aesthetics than practicality, though. I have archtops with both numbers, and I don't use the highest few frets on any of them.

Thanks for this depth of insight, learnt a new info.

**Topper Roth** · 10-31-2022, 06:51 PM

Thanks for all the responses! My question was so much about playing that high on the neck (I certainly don't! At least not very often...) as it was about why an archtop builder would choose to use a certain number of frets - I have two guitars with 20 (a Fender D'Aquisto Elite and an Eastman AR580CE) and two with 21 (a Mortoro Il Storno and an Andersen Streamline). I thought, based on that, that maybe "production" guitars tended to have 20 frets and "boutique" guitars 21. But that's probably not it. As someone said earlier in the thread, perhaps the intended/desired placement of the pickup has some relevance ...