The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Now the big question. I haven't found a thread where this was clearly debated... Sorry if it already exist.

    I am in the market for the most expensive archtop I've ever bought... I want an acoustic one with a floater. I haven't tried so many cause I live in the middle of nowhere.

    I love traditionnal jazz, but with a modern touch to it. I love a rich archtop tone, with some sustain and overtones, but still I want to be able to get that Johnny Smith kinda tone.

    I love the new guitar player on the jazz scene that use luthier built instruments... Gilad, Romain Pilon, Pasquale Grasso, Lage Lund, Peter Bernstein (not so young) and many others... I am more inclined towards a modern kind of jazz.
    So that makes me want to go the luthier way. But it is generally much more expensive and kind of a gamble...

    I have a Gibson L7 from 1950 that I could try and buy near me, but I also tried a guitar from a local luthier (Guillaume Rancourt) which I fell in love with... Almost double the price. It has maybe the best acoustic tone I've ever heard. I also tried a vintage Epi Howard Roberts, and while it was super cool, it felt like a much lower quality instrument compared to the Rancourt... I wonder if I would get the same feeling with the L7.

    Any advice on this topic? Pros/Cons? Is vintage still cool for modern playing?

    Thanks for your opinions!

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  3. #2

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    Here's my two cents FWIW.

    I think that part of the value of vintage archtops is the "collectability factor" and you are paying some of the cost of the instrument for something that has nothing to do with the sound or playability.

    There are so many great luthiers building beautiful looking, sounding, and playing instruments these days, I see that option as the better of the two.

    The only risk I can see, is if you anticipate needing to sell down the line to pay bills etc., it may not be as easy to sell a custom build.

    Ultimately the best choice is a guitar that feeds you inspiration, and makes you want to play all day.

    Good luck to you in your decision!

    Alan

  4. #3

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    Here are my thoughts:

    Priority number one is getting a guitar that inspires your playing. As every piece of wood is different, that guitar might be vintage or it might be modern. It can be an expensive journey to figure that out. With todays high shipping costs, paying shipping both ways to audition guitars can be quite expensive. But doing that is probably cheaper than commisioning a custom build that you don't love in the end.

    Old wood that is well played in is not something a modern luthier can bring in a guitar that they make for you. If old wood is the sound that you want, go vintage.

    Gibsons will have better resale value than Epi's and almost all luthiers building guitars today.

    Good luck. I have three non-cut D'Angelicos that sound as sweet as any modern acoustic archtop that i have played along with the sound of old wood. If I were in your shoes, I would look seriously at that old Gibson you are considering.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    Here are my thoughts:

    Priority number one is getting a guitar that inspires your playing. As every piece of wood is different, that guitar might be vintage or it might be modern. It can be an expensive journey to figure that out. With todays high shipping costs, paying shipping both ways to audition guitars can be quite expensive. But doing that is probably cheaper than commisioning a custom build that you don't love in the end.

    Old wood that is well played in is not something a modern luthier can bring in a guitar that they make for you. If old wood is the sound that you want, go vintage.

    Gibsons will have better resale value than Epi's and almost all luthiers building guitars today.

    Good luck. I have three non-cut D'Angelicos that sound as sweet as any modern acoustic archtop that i have played along with the sound of old wood. If I were in your shoes, I would look seriously at that old Gibson you are considering.
    Wiser words are not spoken from SS, and to that I might say that for myself the best Gibson Guitars might be the ones from 1990 to about 2008 the Hutch era. I own 3 Gibson guitars from that era, an L5c, Legrand, and a Super 400ces. They easily cut the quality control of any manufacturer and luthier. That said they are not exactly like a 1940 L5 acoustic because different era and old wood. One thing to keep in mind in those guitars I personally went and bought them in person. That avoids any problems and to me if at all possible, the only way to really buy a huge high-quality archtop. Nothing wrong with getting a handmade guitar commissioned to be your dream guitar but at this point in my guitar playing days, I would never ever do that period. I want the finished product in hands before I fork over the cash.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Map0Spread
    I am in the market for the most expensive archtop I've ever bought... I haven't tried so many cause I live in the middle of nowhere.
    Would you buy a car without trying it?
    Then why are you talking about buying a $x,xxx-xx,xxx guitar without trying some?

    Quote Originally Posted by Map0Spread
    Is vintage still cool for modern playing?
    Good news: The answer to that question lies in the hands of the operator.
    The tool can handle everything from John Dowland to Mary Halvorson and in-between.

    All the best with your quest!

  7. #6

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    Thanks for the reply. Like I said, I tried guitars from the builder and they were magical. The fact that I can't try it before makes it a bit of a gamble, but it doesn't really scare me. I think the builder is consistant enough. I also think the idea of having a brand new instrument built for me is pretty exciting... but is it worth the money? I dunno, and that's why I'm looking for advice! Maybe some of you have both and have better insight!

  8. #7

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    Only you can say if it's worth your money to commission a stellar custom from an established builder like Rancourt that costs (say) 15k$ rather one from an up-and-coming builder that costs 5k$ and that may be almost as great.
    How important are resale value and overall stability and sensibility to environmental changes to you?

    When you say acoustic archtop I suppose you mean one with nothing to impede the top's vibration, so no electrification hardware installed on, in or through there?

    As to Is vintage still cool for modern playing? ... a) do you care and b) it is if you decide it is!

    EDIT: if with "local luthier" you really mean one with a workshop where you could show up whenever you want then there is much less risk, IMHO. A well-known builder with a repuation, waiting list and prices to go with that will probably appreciate working for and maybe even with a client who is interested to be involved in the birth process of his instrument to be. And use the time spent together to get an idea exactly what kind of sound you're after (and where possible tweak the almost finished instrument to get as close as possible). I know that sound romantic(ised) but the violin builders I've known will work like that.

  9. #8

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    I'll give my two cents as well, though the Deacon and the Swinger have made all the points that really need to be made.

    If it were me, I'd buy the Gibson. But this is because I personally prefer the Gibson sound over most modern luthier guitars, for my playing style.

    You mentioned 5 players. I would group 3 of them together (group 1: Gilad, Romain, Lage) but not the other 2 (group 2: Bernstein and Pasquale). For the first group, I'd say you're going to struggle to get that kind of sound from a Gibson. An L7 is an awesome instrument, but typically they respond better to a heavy attack and they tend to have less sustain. Those 3 players (group 1) each play relatively heavy-built guitars (Lage's Schottmuller has a bolt on neck) with more emphasis on evenness, sustain, and electric tone (vs acoustic tone). I know Rancourt is an acoustic builder first and foremost, so I'm wondering if even THAT would be the right fit. You might want to look at a heavier build. Also, don't overlook the role of effects in group 1's tone. Those guys tend to use a lot of reverb, delay, etc. I'd go as far as to say any good telecaster or 335 is going to get you in that sound ballpark once you add that much reverb.

    The second group you mentioned actually plays with a much more traditional, dry guitar tone, though they are different. Bernstein has a pretty heavy right hand and his archtop is very loud acoustically. If THIS is the sound in your mind, then maybe the Gibson L7 is a good fit. Pasquale's technique and style is very different, he has a relatively relaxed (but super fast) style, with a much gentler attack. He plays a Trenier guitar, which tends to have a much smoother response than something like an L7.

    The reason I am highlighting how different these players are from one another is maybe to ask you how much you are paying attention to their sound/style vs if they are modern/trendy or not. Which of those players excites you the most? Do you have specific recordings that approximate the sound you want to be your voice? That should be the very first step, so that you can be more specific about your own tastes.

  10. #9

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    Play as many as you can before you buy, realizing that might be hard given your location. Having just received a new Campellone acoustic last week I’m likely a little biased. But, it is easily the best sounding acoustic archtop I have ever played, and I have played a fair number of high end Gibsons and luthier models. Easily, it’s the best sounding. It’s warm and has plenty of sustain. It’s responsive to both light and heavy attack. It’s very balanced. And, the quality of workmanship can’t be beat. My advice is to definitely find the one that’s calls you and take your time. But, try a Campellone.

  11. #10

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    I would definitely try the L7 and see how it compares to the Rancourt. You may learn something about your personal taste in tone. At the very least you will get the process started. Lots of experienced guys here all saying try before you spend big bucks.

  12. #11

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    Thanks for the reply, very enlightening.

    In terms of tone, I think Peter Bernstein has one of the best sound I ever heard on an archtop. That being said, I'm not Peter Bernstein and I'm not really interested in replicating one's sound.

    I like versatility, richness(?) in sound, fullness, sustain, .... I really am a jazz player, but I love writing or improvising on pop song à-la Bill Frisell for example. I own a luthier built flat top and it really brought me into the acoustic world... best acoustic sound I ever heard. I'd like to find that in an archtop which could also get a nice, more traditional-ish electric tone with a single coil floater. If I feel the Gibson can do all that, I'll probably go with it since it is much less expensive. I get the impression that these guitar need a heavy right hand, which I don't have. But I still haven't tried one.... I will try the L7 this week, that's the good news!

  13. #12

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    Single coil floater? Kent Armstrong handmade with a coil tap that mimics the P90 and DeArmond 1100 tones, or Pete Biltoft Charlie Christian style floater are both great choices.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Map0Spread
    Thanks for the reply, very enlightening.

    In terms of tone, I think Peter Bernstein has one of the best sound I ever heard on an archtop. That being said, I'm not Peter Bernstein and I'm not really interested in replicating one's sound.

    I like versatility, richness(?) in sound, fullness, sustain, .... I really am a jazz player, but I love writing or improvising on pop song à-la Bill Frisell for example. I own a luthier built flat top and it really brought me into the acoustic world... best acoustic sound I ever heard. I'd like to find that in an archtop which could also get a nice, more traditional-ish electric tone with a single coil floater. If I feel the Gibson can do all that, I'll probably go with it since it is much less expensive. I get the impression that these guitar need a heavy right hand, which I don't have. But I still haven't tried one.... I will try the L7 this week, that's the good news!
    There have been some good suggestions. Good luck.
    I have owned 2 L-7's and agree they're tough to beat.

    For me the elephant in the room is a floater. If you can get used to it almost immediately, and it doesn't get in the way of your picking, great, and good for you.
    But if they're in the way from day one, and /or just don't fit you or the guitar, and your luthier tells you 'that's all the room there is', etc etc etc - - then all of a sudden, it's nowhere near a good idea.

    So, yes, try as many as you can try. Also, have your luthier write a proposal for " an L-7 " - - -similar spec's, but with a set-in pickup - -you know the '50's guitar Gibson never made.....A budget / players guitar but no floater - -a humbucker........See what he says.....

    Hope that helps ! Again, good luck.

  15. #14

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    It seems that our sound preferences are somewhat "fluid". When you get into top tier archtops there are no bad choices only different choices. Gibson will always protect your investment best while you are finding out "who you are". This is not to say choose Gibson, this is to say, it's very difficult to find that forever guitar, and if your at the beginning of that journey, you might want to know that when the road ends, you will be in a good position to take the next.

  16. #15

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    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by alpop
    I would definitely try the L7 and see how it compares to the Rancourt. You may learn something about your personal taste in tone. At the very least you will get the process started. Lots of experienced guys here all saying try before you spend big bucks.

  17. #16

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    As Skyboyny so aptly wrote, 'it's very difficult to find that forever guitar': there are so many different, good ones. I too live in a rural area(central Vermont) and quality acoustic archtops are few and far between: usually I've bought them online. I am also very fond of vintage, and own a few nice old Epis and a Gibson(they suit my playing style).

    Some of the contemporary luthiers offerings are very intriguing, but there are none nearby for me to try. I've read good things about Rancourt's builds, and they're beautiful. Undoubtedly a different sound than a vintage L-7. partly because the L-7 has tone bars, and the Rancourt, I'm guessing, is x-braced.

    If the OP has the resources, I'd seriously suggest buying both: that's the best way to know which best suits his playing, and perhaps would find that, for any given gig(the guitars being different), he can use the one that suits the occasion, or mood.

  18. #17

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    The L7 is going to be a 17" model, no? For one I think that's definitely not going to help with the "needing a heavy hand" aspect. More importantly: what size/shape is that acoustic flat-top, and to what extent are you holding it as a reference (NB: not in the electric domain)?
    One of the rules of thumb I picked up on is that 16"ers are more versatile, and that certainly tends to be confirmed by recordings. I've also heard a few marvellously balanced 18" models (in Michael Watts's recording on instruments from the blue guitar collection) but 17" instruments usually fall a bit short to my ears. To big for a napkin (really nice trebles), too small for a table cloth (really good basses).

  19. #18

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    A good L7 is pretty hard to beat. They are well made, sound great, and can be acquired for a very reasonable price. Furthermore, an original/unmodified L7 is typically easy to sell if you ever change your mind.
    Keith

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    The L7 is going to be a 17" model, no? For one I think that's definitely not going to help with the "needing a heavy hand" aspect. More importantly: what size/shape is that acoustic flat-top, and to what extent are you holding it as a reference (NB: not in the electric domain)?
    One of the rules of thumb I picked up on is that 16"ers are more versatile, and that certainly tends to be confirmed by recordings. I've also heard a few marvellously balanced 18" models (in Michael Watts's recording on instruments from the blue guitar collection) but 17" instruments usually fall a bit short to my ears. To big for a napkin (really nice trebles), too small for a table cloth (really good basses).
    I disagree. I have played 16 inch arctops that required a heavy hand and 18 inch archtops that did well with a light touch. I do not think lower bout size is an indicator of anything other than a measurement.

    Each guitar needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

  21. #20

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    Normally an 18-inch guitar all things being equal would be louder, but we know this is not true with any consistency. In fact there was a time in my younger days all I wanted was an 18 inch guitar. Now 40 years later I find 17 inch guitars to be equal and have a bit of a different voice, and lately I am really liking that in a guitar. There are certainly some very fine rich and ringing 16 inch L5's. Those early L5's from the late 20's these days can make some seriously good music, both rhythm and solo lines being great.

    A 19 inch Stromberg will rattle the windows in your house if needed, but they do not always possess a fine voice for chord-melody and intricate arrangements. The trick is to find the perfect wife and marry her before someone else does.................well guitars you know what I mean.

  22. #21

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    I guess a carved archtop is an acoustic guitar, by definition. But my ‘62 L5C is way different than a modern L5CES. Both can be amplified with a magnetic pickup. but to me, both sound way different. My teacher was the best, and I bought the L5C from him. “You sell it, you’re stupid” I’ve never sold it and never will.

    I’ve never really had a proper “Acoustic” guitar, though. Tried some gypsy jazz guitars. Never bonded with them. Could never get into flattop/dreadnought guitars. I don’t know why. Just never sounded right.

    My thinking now is, in terms of acoustic steel string archtops is: phosphor bronze strings and no magnetic pickup, but the best mic/contact pick up around (either Barbara or James May). Why get another archtop that is basically an electric guitar and has on “OK” acoustic sound? I’d want a dedicated acoustic guitar that isn’t going to sacrifice acoustic sound in order to satisfy being amplified with a magnetic pickup. Got other guitars for that.
    Make sure you know the sound you want and have the technique required to make the sound you want. I bought a Solomon Imperial from Roger (who used to post here), fantastic guitar. He was selling it finance a 1920s L5(!). I didn’t know really how to play it or coax the right sound out of it. I wound up selling it and another guitar to a member here for a 1937 and 1941 L7s.

    Never really bonded with those guitars. And got rid of them. The reason was I found that the Solomon was a far superior acoustic guitar than the L7s. IMO. Apparently, Roger even tried to get the Imperial back. It’s a great guitar, in hindsight. Just didn’t know how to have the right touch to play it.

    No regrets. We live and learn. I have Eric Solomon now building me my dream fully acoustic archtop, no cut way, 8 strings, fanned frets. He’s really excited about the project, too. Gonna be special. I’ve made the transition to 8 string “Brahms” guitars with fanned frets and cello endpins.
    It took me years to figure out what I want, through trial and error. Good luck and think hard about the sound you want, and how you are going play it (finger style, strictly plectrum, hybrid), the touch required, the pluses and minuses of having an “electric” arch top with a magnetic pickup, etc. All that stuff matters.

  23. #22

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    A Gibson guitar is like a Mercedes Benz, it can be sold after having had a bad accident, even if broken into pieces.

    someone will call to buy it, no matter what has happened.



    good thread, it is all about the journey, isn't it ?


  24. #23

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    Acoustic Archtop - Vintage Gibson/Epiphone or Modern Luthier?-lp-jpg

    ..........from the days before the LP model had even come to pass...............

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I disagree. I have played 16 inch arctops that required a heavy hand and 18 inch archtops that did well with a light touch. I do not think lower bout size is an indicator of anything other than a measurement.
    You'll see that I wrote "I think" . I've never played a 17 or 18" guitar, but there's a lot more wood to put into movement. I suppose you'll typically compensate for that by using heavier strings, but those too require more force than lighter strings.

  26. #25

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    If it was me I'd go play the L-7 realize it wasn't going to make me a better player and go back home to my modern Epiphone. I'm simple like that.