The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 46 of 46
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    There's just something about really old wood. If I had all the money in the world, I'd buy a war-era Super 400 over a brand spankin new Benedetto or some such 11 times out of 10.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    If I have a custom made from Rancourt, it will be a cedar top, which I'm told sounds 'broken in' from day one. I played a brand new one and I never heard an acoustic archtop sound so good before... But it clearly was different from a parallel braced vintage Gibson. It was full, warm, round, with a lot of sustain and dynamics.

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    I don't doubt that Rancourt would be able to make you a parallel braced cedar-topped archtop that sounds equally good but just that bit more like a Gibson.

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Update:

    So I have the L7 in my home, tried it for an hour or so.

    Very nice sound, lots of soul in this instrument. It's got that vintage vibe that no new instrument can imitate. I don't like the neck though, too chunky for me. I think I could get used to it though, it's not that big. Not sure I could practice for hours on it.

    That being said, in my honest opinion, acoustically, the Rancourt is much nicer, more magical. It sounds fuller, warmer, more overtones and sustain.

    If they were the same price and had the same resale value, I wouldn't even think about it. I would go with the Rancourt. I also think it is much more versatile.

    Is the resale value that bad on accomplished luthier guitar?

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    It seems like the Rancourt really speaks to you on a lot of levels. Having that kind of immediate connection with an instrument is the most important thing. Sounds like the L7 isn't your thing (FYI, playability on vintage instruments can be corrected to your liking; my best playing guitar is from 1937).

    If you feel that strongly about your preference of the Rancourt, resale should no longer be a factor in the equation. What you want is a guitar that enables you to express the sound in your head. This is your musical voice and it's the most special thing. If you feel that you've found it, go for it.

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    This is so cool that you are sharing this process and letting us be a fly on the wall.

    I don't think the resale value of a respected builder's guitar is going to suffer if the guitar is played and well maintained. (Especially if he/she has a waiting list)

    The issue is that the amount of potential buyers would be significantly less than for a vintage Gibson. So, if you don't see a scenario where you may need to sell relatively quickly there really is no issue regarding resale.

    Have fun!

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    If I liked a guitar that much resale value wouldn't matter. You'll be thinking about it every time you play the L-7.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Map0Spread
    =Is the resale value that bad on accomplished luthier guitar?
    Not if the luthier is called Monteleone, for instance. Or if the moment you decide to sell coincides with a craze for your particular maker.

    How important is resale value for you?

    From the thread title I gather you're going for an instrument that has a true acoustic voice. Interest for that seems to be ... fluctuating.

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    Honestly, I almost never sell anything. Everything I sold (or almost), I regret doing so. But buying a guitar that expensive is a big move for me, I ain't rich at all. I wouldn't buy a new car knowing that it doesn't hold its value... A guitar is different, but still, I don't want to buy something that's gonna lose 75% of its value once it's on my wall.

    That being said, I played the L7 a lot more last night, and it kinda grew on me! But still, the Rancourt guitar may be new, but to me it felt like it carried a lot of 'soul' with it. There is something magical for me to have my own archtop built, which will develop to my playing, will bear my scratches and dings... And acoustically, while very different, was in my opinion much better. The parallel brace L7 does have some magic to it though I must say... smells like jazz.

    So I decided to go with the Rancourt, first deposit already done! It will be a long wait, but I will keep this thread alive with photos and clips! I'm super excited to live thourhg that process... Did I say that Rancourt live close to me? That really adds up to the experience.

    Here's a clip of a similar Rancourt guitar, same pickup and construction, except mine will be 17''.


  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Map0Spread
    Thanks for the reply, very enlightening.

    In terms of tone, I think Peter Bernstein has one of the best sound I ever heard on an archtop. That being said, I'm not Peter Bernstein and I'm not really interested in replicating one's sound.

    I like versatility, richness(?) in sound, fullness, sustain, .... I really am a jazz player, but I love writing or improvising on pop song à-la Bill Frisell for example. I own a luthier built flat top and it really brought me into the acoustic world... best acoustic sound I ever heard. I'd like to find that in an archtop which could also get a nice, more traditional-ish electric tone with a single coil floater. If I feel the Gibson can do all that, I'll probably go with it since it is much less expensive. I get the impression that these guitar need a heavy right hand, which I don't have. But I still haven't tried one.... I will try the L7 this week, that's the good news!
    this thread is fascinating but also a little bewildering because you mention very different sounds as potential models. If we speak electric sounds, Johnny Smith is 100%old-style carved archtop with a floating pickup DeArmond or Minim-Humbucker, Bernstein's guitar seems to be similar to that template, but with a full-sized humbucker, Bill Frisell is very much a telecaster sound with LOADS of sustain…

    If we talk acoustic sounds, the impression I have from the last video is that you did well to go the modern build route. The guitars I love most of all on the planet are 1930s Epiphones. I have a 38 Epi DeLuxe and would never trade it for anything and am actively on the hunt for an early-30s, 16" variant. All of the qualities you mention are there for me ("versatility" – whatever it may mean to us – "richness, fullness") but sustain? Old archtops were made for playing rhythm 4-to-the-bar in orchestras. They need fast decay, not sustain, and retain that even when amplified through a floating DeArmond. And they needed to have a very prominent midrange to cut through. I adore that sound, and you must have heard it in the L-7, but it's miles and miles away from "modern" and very different from the guitar in the video you posted, which is a lot closer to a flat-top in sound. Not better, not worse, but way way different.

    I hope you enjoy your new guitar very much! If and when the old-school jazz bug will bite in the future, you won't necessarily have to break the bank. Take a look at old Epis (1930-1950): you may find a Triumph at a very reasonable price and be happily equipped til the end of your days ;D

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for the reply! Yeah of course Frisell is something else, but I was speaking more of his playing style and repertoire than his sound. He also has played a lot on acoustic guitars lately, mostly flat tops.

    The video I posted doesn't show that well the acoustic properties of the guitar... here is a better one. It is probably the best sounding acoustic archtop I've ever heard... I suggest you listen to the interpretation of Beautiful Dreamer, arrangement by Al Valenti.


  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    It sounds to me like you made the right decision as you are in love with the sound of the Rancourt guitar. Vintage guitars are great, I own and have owned many, but sometimes a contemporary guitar is a better choice, especially if you are looking for a modern sound.

    I would suggest moving on to: what is the process of ordering a custom made arch top, and what are the questions you need to ask and the specifications you need to arrive at for the making of that guitar?

    I believe there are several threads on here that would be helpful, and without a doubt there are many folks here with a lot of experience ordering custom made guitars. These people were very helpful to me when I ordered my first (hopefully not my last!) custom made arch top.

    One of the toughest and first decisions you need to make are the dimensions of the neck. If you already know that then that helps a lot. Mine was a more difficult decision for a variety of reasons, and I went with a 1 3/4" width, 25" scale, and medium neck depth trending on the thicker side. It took me awhile to arrive at that, and the maker was very patient and helpful in that process. Luckily I had a guitar with a very similar neck that I liked a lot.

    But I also like standard Gibson (175, 335 etc) scale necks, as well as longer L5 scale necks, so for me it was a tough decision. Getting the neck right is I think a big part of arriving at a guitar that will satisfy you.

    Anyway, good luck with your build! In terms of resale I wouldn't sweat it too much, I doubt you will want to sell it, and typically a custom arch top from a top maker in very good condition will be sellable, at some but not too much of a loss (look at it as a rental or education!). Nothing like the way a car plummets in value!

  14. #38

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bluejaybill
    typically a custom arch top from a top maker in very good condition will be sellable, at some but not too much of a loss (look at it as a rental or education!). Nothing like the way a car plummets in value!
    At the moment it looks that way. But you can't predict how this will evolve in the future. If more people become interested in acoustic archtops and the repertoire that can be played on it (i.e. not just jazz) then yes, the good ones will be sellable. It the balance swings the other way and people start to realise they can get the same electric sound from a much less exquisite hand-built instrument that costs a fraction of the price...

    I bought 2 baroque violins when the HIP movement was in full boom in the early 90s and I motivated to join. The first because I wanted one and it was available; I paid a bit too much for it but no one advised against it. Only a few years later I realised it held me back, and that a really good instrument was justified. That happened to be at the time I was defending my PhD so I let it be known that anyone who felt like celebrating that achievement could make a donation to my "violin fund". This allowed me to buy an available violin from a well known and respected Dutch builder. I kept the 1st because it wasn't bad enough to sell (and I'd make a loss on it), plus having a 2nd instrument can be useful.
    A few things changed since then and about 5 years ago when I finally accepted these instruments had to be sold. Among them, the arrival of a whole slew of young (some not so young anymore) builders making quality baroque instruments for much less than what a sought-after older builder of mostly modern instruments asks. What did not happen was that players started to seek out recent master builds instead of vintage instruments, or started to appreciate recent builds that were not faithful copies of a famous "real" baroque violin (mine does happen to be inspired by one of those, a Stainer). The professional situation that was so comfortable in the 90s has also degraded quite seriously; even in the Netherlands the "gig culture" that existed has apparently largely disappeared (I'm still talking about the Early Music scene).
    The result: I sold the 1st baroque violin with considerable loss (even assuming 0 inflation) through an auction house in Paris. My bows were sold without loss or hassle (they were good... and almost no one plays with an actual vintage baroque bow). For the Bolink, they offered to put the minimum value at less than half I paid for it, simply because the builder's reputation apparently doesn't really pass the national borders. The best offer to date I have had is the approximate sum € of what I paid for it in Dutch guilders. That's a considerable loss, and meanwhile, the insurance value would be almost double that amount.

    NB: back then I wasn't planning on selling, but thought it wouldn't be a problem to do this without a big loss...

  15. #39

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for the reply. Indeed, the neck is my main concern, and I know when I love a neck, but I haven't try a hundred different, so I'm not quite sure what's my favorite.

    I'm pretty sure I'll go with a 25'' scale. I'm ok with 24.75'' (love my ES-335) and I think 25.5'' is not so comfortable (I have a tele and a strat). I think 25'' will be just perfect, and I really loved the Rancourt I tried which were all 25''.

    My main concern is the nut width... I like 1 11/16, but I think I would prefer a bit wider, so I thought 1 3/4. I never tried one with 1 3/4, but it is very close to 1 11/16, I'm pretty sure I would be happy with that. But still, trying one would be better... but living in a rural community of Quebec, it's pretty hard to try guitars here.

    Finally, the thickness of the neck I think is the easiest part. I asked him to make it a bit thicker at first, then I will try it and make adjustments. It is the easiest part to adjust to my liking, mainly because I live near the luthier. I also thought I loved my X-500 neck, which is narrow (never liked that) but thin and easy to play. Now that I tried the '50 L7 and the Rancourt, which are much thicker, I'm starting to like that a lot... They seemed harder to play at first, but now that I'm getting used to it, I find that my hand rests better on it and my thumb is more relaxed when I do big stretches in my voicings.

    The lower bout is also a concern. I like 17'' and at first it was a no brainer for me. But then I started to wonder if 16'' would be better for me... I think they are visually more elegant, and many players seems to find them more comfortable. The luthier tells me that the different in tone ain't that much different which his building style. I tried a 15'' from him and I confirm that it sounded full, rich, balanced and the bass wasn't lacking.

  16. #40

    User Info Menu

    Indeed, we don't know how the market will evolve... It's also possible that the vintage archtop market drops someday. Jazz seems to drop in popularity amongst young guitar players... Some colleges and Universities here in Quebec took a turn towards pop music and slowly let go of their jazz studies programs. Will people still pay a high price for vintage instruments in 20 years? I don't know, collectors probably will still buy collector grade archtops. My opinion is that right now, the price is way too high for lower tier instrument like the L7, L50, ES-175, Es-125, etc... This is part of the reason why I want to go with a modern builder. For less than twice the money of the L7, I get a super high end guitar with superior acoustic, built with passion and extreme attention to details, made for me to my liking.

    One thing is sure about modern builders guitars, it's that they put a lot of work, time and research to build these instruments, and that will always cost a lot of money, like any piece of art. So I doubt these really drop in price. Resale is certainly harder though, specially if the specs are a bit off, or the builder unknown.

    Even with vintage instruments, I'm not sure they are a safe investment. The market could eventually crash, or not, who knows...

  17. #41

    User Info Menu

    Since you're living so close to the builder you could ask if he'd be willing to borrow or rent an instrument for a week or two. In the Netherlands this is the norm for violins (at least the "off-the-shelf" ones).

  18. #42

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Map0Spread
    Thanks for the reply. Indeed, the neck is my main concern, and I know when I love a neck, but I haven't try a hundred different, so I'm not quite sure what's my favorite.

    I'm pretty sure I'll go with a 25'' scale. I'm ok with 24.75'' (love my ES-335) and I think 25.5'' is not so comfortable (I have a tele and a strat). I think 25'' will be just perfect, and I really loved the Rancourt I tried which were all 25''.

    My main concern is the nut width... I like 1 11/16, but I think I would prefer a bit wider, so I thought 1 3/4. I never tried one with 1 3/4, but it is very close to 1 11/16, I'm pretty sure I would be happy with that. But still, trying one would be better... but living in a rural community of Quebec, it's pretty hard to try guitars here.

    Finally, the thickness of the neck I think is the easiest part. I asked him to make it a bit thicker at first, then I will try it and make adjustments. It is the easiest part to adjust to my liking, mainly because I live near the luthier. I also thought I loved my X-500 neck, which is narrow (never liked that) but thin and easy to play. Now that I tried the '50 L7 and the Rancourt, which are much thicker, I'm starting to like that a lot... They seemed harder to play at first, but now that I'm getting used to it, I find that my hand rests better on it and my thumb is more relaxed when I do big stretches in my voicings.

    The lower bout is also a concern. I like 17'' and at first it was a no brainer for me. But then I started to wonder if 16'' would be better for me... I think they are visually more elegant, and many players seems to find them more comfortable. The luthier tells me that the different in tone ain't that much different which his building style. I tried a 15'' from him and I confirm that it sounded full, rich, balanced and the bass wasn't lacking.
    Personally I like 17" for acoustic and 16" for electric, and in fact that is what I currently have. I would be surprised if a 16" sounded similar to a 17" acoustically, generally you lose a bit going down in size, but then again most 16" guitars I have played are not carved but laminate. They can sound OK, certainly vintage 16" L5's sound fabulous, but a 17" carved guitar is sort of the benchmark for acoustics IMHO. You may find it sounds great depending on the luthier. And 16" is a really comfortable playing size for sure, maybe even more comfortable than a 17".

    As regards the neck, both of mine are pretty similar, 25", 1 3/4" at the nut, and pretty full front to back. I was surprised at how different 1 3/4" was from a 1 11/16", but the extra width is nice once you get used to it. Be aware that 1 3/4" and full neck can start to be a handful, some folks report. I have big hands so it works for me.

  19. #43

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bluejaybill
    Personally I like 17" for acoustic and 16" for electric, and in fact that is what I currently have. I would be surprised if a 16" sounded similar to a 17" acoustically, generally you lose a bit going down in size, but then again most 16" guitars I have played are not carved but laminate. They can sound OK, certainly vintage 16" L5's sound fabulous, but a 17" carved guitar is sort of the benchmark for acoustics IMHO. You may find it sounds great depending on the luthier. And 16" is a really comfortable playing size for sure, maybe even more comfortable than a 17".

    As regards the neck, both of mine are pretty similar, 25", 1 3/4" at the nut, and pretty full front to back. I was surprised at how different 1 3/4" was from a 1 11/16", but the extra width is nice once you get used to it. Be aware that 1 3/4" and full neck can start to be a handful, some folks report. I have big hands so it works for me.
    Just a couple of comments...

    I, too, have found that for acoustic sound, 17" just seems to have it over smaller archtops. So I just had to figure out how to comfortably handle my 17" archtop. Using a strap, I play it a bit off to the right side, which also has the advantage of moving the neck closer in to me.

    Also, regarding 1 11/16" vs 1 3/4" nut, my Citation has a 1 23/32" nut and that is right between 1 11/16" and 1 3/4". It seems to be a nice compromise and I am somewhat surprised that this nut width isn't more popular. When I look up the Citation on the internet, everybody says it is 1 11/16". I measured it with digital calipers when a knowledgeable friend told me the true nut width, and he was right. I figured something was amiss about this because my preference is for a 1 3/4" nut such as my Eastman FV-880 has, but it seemed odd that the Citation was just as comfortable for me. So now I know why (22/32 = 11/16 24/32 = 12/16 = 3/4, so 23/32 is right in between).

    Tony

  20. #44

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    You'll see that I wrote "I think" . I've never played a 17 or 18" guitar, but there's a lot more wood to put into movement. I suppose you'll typically compensate for that by using heavier strings, but those too require more force than lighter strings.
    Maybe, if all things were equal- which they never are. Wood thicknesses, construction technique etc are different across brands, and even sometimes within brands. I have heard well balanced 16 and 17 inch guitars that you don't need to drive very hard to get a great sound, and my 17" arch top has near perfect balance from bass to treble, and can play soft to loud.18" I have very little experience with but most say that S400's have more bass than L5's, for what it's worth.

    As someone else said, it is dependent on each individual guitar and you have to evaluate each on its own.

  21. #45

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bluejaybill
    most say that S400's have more bass than L5's, for what it's worth.
    It'd be a strange world in which the opposite were true (or to be expected) ...

  22. #46

    User Info Menu

    Jazz guitarists seem to be more fussy about their guitars than most are about whom they marry! (That's hyperbole- I hope!)

    There is an unquantifiable factor that I find important, and that's the joy I get. Some of it is the aesthetics, some the feel, some the playability and some the tone. Having a quality name on the headstock may help. Often it is influenced strongly by the story behind the individual guitar and how that personally affects me. For example I have a Heritage H-530 that is a very good guitar, but what put it over the top is the character of who ordered and owned it, how he died, and my conversations with his widow and his bandmate. None of that will mean anything to anyone else, but I feel it every time I pick the guitar up.

    It's important to have a back story otherwise it's just a commodity.

    Acoustic Archtop - Vintage Gibson/Epiphone or Modern Luthier?-50347043907_9283a30925_c-jpgAcoustic Archtop - Vintage Gibson/Epiphone or Modern Luthier?-50346189888_a989fbf5f4_c-jpgAcoustic Archtop - Vintage Gibson/Epiphone or Modern Luthier?-49403701213_1f92236fd1_c-jpgAcoustic Archtop - Vintage Gibson/Epiphone or Modern Luthier?-50347043957_a3bf8b7e78_c-jpgAcoustic Archtop - Vintage Gibson/Epiphone or Modern Luthier?-50346189908_21a8d4dc83_c-jpg