The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I was surfing Youtube watching some videos of amazing archtops when the price tag on this '40s L5N became visible...Looks like the asking price at Norman's Rare guitars about 5 years ago was $6895. Seems so "affordable" these days.

    How quickly prices have gone up... oh my...-screen-shot-2022-08-26-6-57-34-pm-png


    Then I remembered a guitar show back in March of 2017... and these prices seemed high back then (at least to me)
    1947 L7... asking $2,400
    likely 1950s (though tag says '37?) L5... $5,000.

    How quickly prices have gone up... oh my...-l5-l7-jpg

    '48 Super 400... asking $7,700
    How quickly prices have gone up... oh my...-img_9980-jpg

    '50 L7CN with era DeArmond pickup.... $5,500
    How quickly prices have gone up... oh my...-img_9973-jpg
    Last edited by Steve Z; 08-26-2022 at 08:58 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I did some horse trading in about '85 or '86 and got the only Johnny Smith I ever owned for about $700. Also, in about '73 or'74, I traded a used (newish) black Les Paul Standard even up for a mint-ish '47 Super 400. About the same time I bought a '68 Tele with Bigsby for $120 - played that sucker for 35 years. About '82 I bought a '59 'burst Les Paul for $265 - sold it to a dealer friend the next day for $800 and I think he consigned it at Gruhns - not sure what happened to it after that; it was a plain top. My parents bought me my first electric guitar in a pawn shop for $75 - it was a1960 LP Jr with original faux alligator cardboard case. Lots of others that I can remember.....

  4. #3

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    Well, they’re not making any more 1948 Super 400s, so…

    In 1982 I bought a 1962 ES-335 in Cherry Sunburst for $400, all original, no mods. In 1984 I traded it in towards a brand new ES-175, the “guitar of my dreams”, which ended up being not so much, turns out the shape just didn’t suit me.

    The 335 is the only guitar regret I have…

  5. #4

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    And those prices are part of why people who are gigging are playing Telecasters and other "alternative" instruments for jazz. I don't know who's buying these things at these prices, but it's certainly not people trying to make a living playing jazz.

  6. #5

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    When I worked full time as a musician back in the late 1970s, I met many hobbyist type players who often had much better quality instruments than we had, simply because they had better paying jobs. Also, many of them were fine players but just didn't have any interest in performing.

    Tony

  7. #6

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    IDK everything worthwhile is expensive these days. Nice cars. Gas for cars. Hotels.

    Well, good pants and shirts from Lands End aren’t too bad. Made in Vietnam.

    You can still get decent guitars for not too much $$$, but yes top quality guitars especially archtops are not cheap.

    Of course as my girlfriend says, you don’t need to be a cheapskate these days. Just spend the money and get what you want.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    IDK everything worthwhile is expensive these days. Nice cars. Gas for cars. Hotels.

    Well, good pants and shirts from Lands End aren’t too bad. Made in Vietnam.

    You can still get decent guitars for not too much $$$, but yes top quality guitars especially archtops are not cheap.

    Of course as my girlfriend says, you don’t need to be a cheapskate these days. Just spend the money and get what you want.
    There is probably a lot of truth in this statement. I can honestly say that once I played that Gibson Citation at Lavonne's Music, I could well have bought a lot of archtops, looking for that experience again. That would have cost me more in the long run than simply buying it and getting it done. Unless one is extremely lucky with buying, selling, and trading, a lot of money would pass through your hands on the way to eventually coming back to the one that really did it for you.

    Tony

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    And those prices are part of why people who are gigging are playing Telecasters and other "alternative" instruments for jazz. I don't know who's buying these things at these prices, but it's certainly not people trying to make a living playing jazz.
    That’s certainly true. I wonder how many of these high priced vintage guitars actually sell. The demand/market for it has to be so small. Young players as you’ve mentioned have moved on and play all sorts of guitars. Even those that want archtops - there are a ton of affordable options. I know if I ever have $10k to spend on a guitar I’d be going to get something custom and new, not vintage.

    perhaps I’m wrong and there are more collectors than I’d expect

  10. #9

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    Let's see, Western governments have been printing money like never before and prices are going up. It doesn't take an economist to connect the dots.

    Archtops? Well the generation that likes classic archtops are in the "better spend it while we can" mode and archtop prices are currently strong. Will they stay strong?

    Here are a few arguments in favor of continued strong archtop prices:

    A) With all the money printing and the ponzi scheme of modern banking, inflation will continue to roar, raising the price of classic archtops. As they say, a rising tide lifts all ships.

    B) The materials to make classic archtops are running out. Scarcity keeps prices high in the face of continued demand.

    C) The world's population is ever increasing and there will be new guitarists in every generation who will want fine archtops.

    OTOH, perhaps when the generations that like classic archtops (boomers and Xers) leave the scene, prices will plummet. Look at the long term prices of a Ford Model A for a preview of that.

    Right now, many of us wish we had kept the archtops we sold (or perhaps had bought them when we could have). Up the road, many of us might wish we had sold today before the market dried up and prices fell.

    Life would be so much easier (and less exciting) if we had a crystal ball.

  11. #10

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    Lots of good points in this thread. What I can say is that there is a very real joy in having a truly fine instrument at your beck and call to pick up and play every day. I have seen this in people of most any interest, the joy in having access to the truly fine in their area of interest. I don't think you can put a price on that.

    When you have a guitar that you don't think I wish it just had this or that and it would be perfect, regardless of the cost, that is a truly fine instrument. Some are fortunate to find that at $300, and some never find it even at $30,000. Hopefully, we all find it at some point.

    Tony

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    IDK everything worthwhile is expensive these days. Nice cars. Gas for cars. Hotels.

    Well, good pants and shirts from Lands End aren’t too bad. Made in Vietnam.

    You can still get decent guitars for not too much $$$, but yes top quality guitars especially archtops are not cheap.

    Of course as my girlfriend says, you don’t need to be a cheapskate these days. Just spend the money and get what you want.
    My wife says the same thing, but unfortunately she practices what she preaches!

    Actually my wife has always been great about my spending on musical gear. When I got my Campellone, she asked me if I needed a new amp to go with it!

  13. #12

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    While nice to look at and see demonstrations of, there is a large segment of guitars that I almost ignore. I don't tell other people that they aren't worth the money or anything like that. They just aren't in my reality and I don't seek them out if even to play in a shop. I am happy with what I have and glad that I got them before prices went to the next level. None of them are vintage but when Gibson HEs were in the $2k and sub range I knew that I could deal with that and picked up mint examples of the BJB and 490R. Same thing with an ES-390. None of the three may have that "thunk" but years ago when I had an ES-175 that had the thunk I remember not liking the playability. What I have is all I need in archtops but just to cure some GAS I have another less expensive Korean Guild archtop which I an hesitant to let go since I like it so much. All in all I just recognize my limitations from an economic point of view and also from a want/need point of view.

  14. #13

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    None of this matters. I’d trade all of my guitars if it would bring Joey DeFrancesco back. A total bummer!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    None of this matters. I’d trade all of my guitars if it would bring Joey DeFrancesco back. A total bummer!


    Tony

  16. #15

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    The government is printing money. Not guitars. What's to understand?

  17. #16

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    Prices have shot up so much in the last few years that I'm no longer looking to buy any gear.

    I'm focusing on the guitars and amps I have...and practicing more.

  18. #17

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    I went shopping and discovered Gretsch arch tops. Best value for a pro guitar I've run across in many years, although died-in-the-wool "jazz" guitarists may not agree. I've never played a guitar with more tonal variety and snap to the notes as these. And slightly used models in the Electromatic range are all over the place for $600-800. Getting through inflationary periods demands smart shopping.

  19. #18

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    I am thankful for what I have. However, window shopping still fits my budget!

  20. #19

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    It's possible demand for nice jazz guitars will diminish as the older crowd that likes them dies off. And overall there aren't going to be as many guitar players out there. So.. if you live long enough, I predict it will get better regardless of overall inflation.

  21. #20

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    I stoppeth one of three to tell them that collecting is a boomer phenomenon that appears to have had its day. The boomers have disposable incomes with which to buy things and homes large enough to accommodate them. Generation X has smaller incomes and smaller properties, but more worry. Still younger generations have even less, and do not have the urge to collect objects: they grew up online. The young also hate jazz, so the flow of archtops from suburban homes to the resale markets can only increase.

    But why are guitar prices going up now? Probably it is because men worried about inflation are putting their liquid assets into solid things they can enjoy, which might later yield a return on the investment. In this last respect, they are likely to be disappointed. Even when the going was good, collectibles did not do that well.
    In 1999, economists Benjamin J. Burton and Joyce P. Jacobsen found their meta-analysis of the available evidence, "supports the notion that the return on collectibles may be negatively related to stock market rises, but does not provide evidence that collectibles are a good hedge against stock price falls, as their returns remain flat in bear markets" (Measuring Returns on Investments in Collectibles; Journal of Economic Perspectives—Volume 13, Number 4—Fall 1999—Page 201).

  22. #21

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    I feel that the market for Gibson archtops is no longer for musicians (who can afford these prices?) but for rich collectors that don't even play them and keep them in a closet like an investment return.
    And it's quite sad

  23. #22

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    I saw a photograph, I think on this forum, of part of one man's collection: more than twenty examples of one model of Gibson archtop. It struck me as obsessive to hoard all those guitars, when one would have been enough, and unfair on all the musicians who would not have the opportunity to play them.

    Of course, hoarding can be a form of market manipulation, since it creates scarcity.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jx30510
    I feel that the market for Gibson archtops is no longer for musicians (who can afford these prices?) but for rich collectors that don't even play them and keep them in a closet like an investment return.
    And it's quite sad
    I've heard this same statement made for the last 40 years. Still I see "musicians" playing them. If you really want something you will find a way to get it.

  25. #24

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    The rich have so much more these days. They can outbid us. The only was to get something you really want might be to steal it.

  26. #25

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    TBH, a few weeks back someone started a thread on the AGF about who buys 10k+ guitars, and my first reaction was they should have asked here O:-)