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Not if you're gigging in Venice!
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
But isn’t it a bit difficult to get to the gig?
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08-29-2022 11:31 AM
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In the US you can earn that much just by working a second job. Probably in a lot of other places as well.
Or, there's taking vicarious pleasure when someone other than yourself gets to enjoy a nice guitar.
Of course there's always the solace of that voice in your head that reminds you how much better a player you are than most dentists.Last edited by Spook410; 08-29-2022 at 05:16 PM.
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That is how I was raised. I was also told that you don't borrow money to buy stuff you do not need. You work hard/smart, save your money and then you can get to buy whatever you want. I am the grandson of immigrants who came to America with nothing. I worked my way through college and law school and have no sympathy for those who did not work as hard/smart as I did and who have an issue with my guitar collection (or my other possessions). Originally Posted by Spook410
Years ago, on this forum, a fellow did a NGD about his 5K handmade Telecaster. I opined that I thought it foolish to spend so much on a bolt on neck guitar. Patrick2 (RIP) admonished me for that, telling me that it was no business of mine how anyone else choose to spend their hard earned dollars. Patrick was right and I was in the wrong, just as those who have opined in this thread that archtop collectors should not have their collections are also in the wrong.
OK, rant over.
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I’m with you on that! No more than a few weeks ago, someone on JGO questioned the fact that I had a 175 in high school. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I started playing real gigs at 13 and worked as a cart boy and then a produce clerk at Casel’s Delicatessen from the age of 12. By the summer after my sophomore year in high school, I was gigging regularly at local parties. I had enough good gigs by the following year to quit the deli, and I managed to earn most of the first year of my college tuition & expenses with that used 175. I then gigged my way through college and graduate school, acquiring a few fine guitars and amps plus a Farfisa Fast Four and a Wurlitzer EP along the way.
Most of those instruments (along with my motorcycle and everything I’d saved except what was allotted to my remaining education) turned into an engagement ring. But life goes on, and I ended up with better instruments and a wonderful wife to whom I’m still married half a century later.
Hard work pays off, as long as you can stand playing many tunes you hate
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An awful lot of people are finding their money is not worth enough, and it is not because of a failure to go to law school and to work hard at lawyering. The truth of things is that the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and those in the middle are floundering. Joining the middle class is becoming increasingly expensive. Since 1980, college fees in the USA have increased by 1200%; in the ten years to 2019, fees increased by 25%. Meanwhile, the wealthy keep on inheriting: the higher up you are on the wealth ladder, the more likely you are to have inherited money.
The wealthy also buy stuff, especially expensive stuff. The unfortunate truth about nice guitars is that they are Veblen goods: demand increases as price increases, because of their exclusive nature and appeal as status symbols. So you work hard, save your money, but those guitars you desire keep on getting more expensive, and more scarce.
On the other hand, it is now inevitable that 3.3 percent of the Greenland ice sheet will melt — equal to 110 trillion tons of ice, causing nearly a foot of global sea-level rise. A lot of wealth will be washed away, and all those nice things might be worthless.
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look on the bright side - Lake Mead levels won’t be the pressing problem anymore Originally Posted by Litterick;[FONT=book antiqua
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Fact: Nice archtop guitars are going up faster than wages.
However, at current prices and current wages, you can still earn the money for one if you work hard. Assuming you haven't made choices that pre-empt that option like raising a family. Or having the good sense to stick with your tele.
Tuition goes up based on government backed student loans. And loan 'forgiveness'. When the US government offered a $7500 tax break on electric cars, the manufacturers raised their prices around $7500. And you were expecting what different outcome? Hug your local socialist.
Inflation will hurt the lower classes the hardest and that sucks. I really wish the government had not printed so much money in the last few years. It is surreal that they continue to do so. Now we're all screwed.
And I'll never own an air cooled Porsche. Damn. Poor me. It's all just.. so.. unjust.
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Enough good guitars have been and are made today, fortunately, that there's something for everybody. It might be also that a good yet broke artist will be given a good deal, or an indefinite loan on a fine instrument from some collector or benevolent soul - yes that happens too. Certain brand-name archtops have gotten too expensive, yes, to the point buying one may not make sense even to people who could afford them. That's certainly my case. I'm not sure I'll be anymore tempted in my retirement. It's up to each individual, and again, there are alternatives.
I used to be of the "do your degree first" mentality but I've somehow reconsidered that now. One of my cousins wanted to be a singer and my aunt wouldn't let him before he did his degree. They're on good terms but she told me she regretted it because her son became a singer anyway but lost a few years due to her insistence. As another example, last summer my daughter did a dance class. The instructor was a legit former ballet dancer with decades at the highest level, and on the last day parents were allowed to attend the class, and it was so awesome to watch. So much talent, intelligence and passion. I thought to myself the world needs more people like this. That guy does more good in one hour than any paper-pusher or politician does in a year or decade - when most have forgotten values of excellence, honesty, accuracy, hard work, even aesthetics, and yes, freedom that made us as a civilization - but that dancer did not: otherwise he couldn't be a dancer, see what I mean? What does this say about our world ? Very high standards obviously. But the world needs to be kinder to artists, I hope we figure out a way.
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I am merely trying to explain the OP's observation that prices of vintage guitars have risen dramatically in recent years. I am not trying to nationalise archtop collections or shame collectors into selling their guitars. I am not interested in arguing about U.S. monetary policy, the work ethic, or the merits of socialism. Your country is very different from the other advanced democracies in many respects, which I am not qualified to discuss. I do not care to engage in a moral argument about making money.
I do agree with you that we are all screwed, but not because of quantitative easing or modern monetary theory. We are all screwed because our climate is collapsing. How that affects vintage guitar prices remains to be seen.
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What hasn't been blamed on the climate collapsing these days ? I won't get in any debate but will only say this : I can assure you that is not true. I wish people would just chill about that issue. Things are complicated enough as it is. That is my honest opinion which has evolved over the years from "we're doomed" to a lot more calm and skeptical, as someone who's more familiar with the climate change thing (not as a scientist) than most of the rest of the population. Originally Posted by Litterick
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OTOH guitars are a carbon sink
EDIT: NEW guitars are a carbon sink. Contact your local luthier!Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-30-2022 at 07:35 AM.
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Cool, I'll take your word for it then. Originally Posted by m_d
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Originally Posted by m_d
Today:
An ominous new study shows about a quarter of a metre of sea level rise is now inevitable - even if all climate-damaging actions stopped immediately. The paper, published in the Nature Climate Change journal, showed that ice melt from Greenland alone would cause the rise. It came as a separate OECD study showed member countries were incentivising consumption patterns in the wrong direction, with a huge increase in fossil fuel subsides last year.
Wait, there's more:
The planet has warmed on average about 1.1 degrees since 1850. Countries have committed to efforts that - if followed through on completely - would keep warming to somewhere around 1.9 to 2.4 degrees. But even the lower of those figures is far above the 1.5 degree mark above which scientists say there will be devastating consequences across the globe.
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Ive got a simple test then of how much ‘climate change skeptics’ believe what they are saying - see it they’ll invest in beachfront property. Try to sell them a nice holiday home in say, Florida. Originally Posted by Litterick
The problem re communication with the general public this doesn’t make intuitive sense to people; they are used to linearity. If we stop doing x, y will stop happening. This is not the case here (which is why in my opinion Carbon Capture is an essential technology for the future, but there are policy problems in the short term; also the tech is nowhere near ready.)
Also the thing about average warming, people tend to think ‘why is a degree or two such a big deal?’ not realising that that’s referring to average global temperature and that small seeming increased inputs can result in large chaotic nonlinear outputs; or to put it in terms non scientists might understand, the way gradual climate change manifests in more extreme and unpredictable weather.
Such as me, a UK resident, having to weather 40C in a house without air conditioning. Luckily we were able to run a paddling pool for the kids before the drought kicked in and the water companies enacted a hosepipe ban. I also had to cancel our camping trip due to concerns about wildfires.
(Also couldn’t go to the beach because the water companies also dumped massive amounts of shit into the sea, and my youngest has a tendency to sip seawater at the moment. TBF I can’t blame that on AGW.)
Yesterday I visited a garden where my mum who’s into gardening pointed they’ve taken out all the Victorian planting because it’s too water intensive. It’s all hardy perennials now. We no longer have the English climate required for English country gardens. OTOH they did look beautiful alongside all the golden leaves from the month early Autumn we are having as all the stressed trees try to conserve water.
Needless to say this is all low level stuff compared to what people are going through in other corners of the world, but things are making themselves felt here. I don’t mean to moan, we had a nice time generally (and some gorgeous days), but it’s pretty striking. It's meant to be wet and miserable here.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-30-2022 at 08:03 AM.
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That’s a much better analogy than you may realize. I fell in love with the 356 when I was about 12. I bought my first one (a rusty ‘57 coupe) in 1966 for $400. I subsequently went through a ‘59 Super 90, a ‘62 T6 coupe, a ‘58 Speedster, a ‘61 cabriolet that was too far gone to restore without a proper shop (yes, I tried anyway), and a ‘60 coupe I shared with my cousin. None of those cars cost me more than $2k. I fixed up most of them and sold all for at least what they cost me. Originally Posted by Spook410
What attracted me to Porsche was the simplicity of their excellence. They had just enough power - although another hundred horses under the lid would have been cool, they were not necessary. They could be made to cover lots of ground fast if you knew how. They had no wasted components or materials - everything was efficient and functional. They were very well made for the day - rust was not peculiar to Porsches in those days. They were easy to repair mechanically. They were comfortable and roomy. They easily held a guitar and an amp.
When Porsche got fancy, I said goodbye. They started moving to expensive cars with major defects that the customer paid dearly to live with - exploding air boxes and clutches, pulled case studs, bad timing chain tensioners, etc in 911s, engine mounts, steering racks, fuel pumps etc in 944s, clutches in 928s, major engine failures because of inadequate cooling of front cylinders in Boxsters, and so much more.
Porsche, like Gibson and others, got uppity and lost sight of what made them great. Prices rose and quality fell. Even their top models were sold with major flaws and defects. Communication with them went from open and informative up to the early ‘60s to impossible in only a few years. Every 356 was excellent. Every Gibson was excellent. Sure, there were a few oddball lemons - but not many. Then, all of a sudden, it changed for both. In fact, it changed everywhere - Norlin / Gibson, CBS / Fender, AMF / Harley, and Porsche’s dramatic character shift from lean beautiful 356s to the progressively fatter and failure-prone 911s.
I started with a very used Porsche in 1966 and had 5 more over several years. I drive an FT86 now. It has the same quality, character, and reliability as a new 356 Porsche. I started with a used 345 in 1960 and had multiple other Gibsons over several years. I haven’t had one in 20+ years. My two main guitars now are an Eastman 810 and an Ibanez AF207. And I’m very happy! I’d love to restore another 356, but decent hulks are $35k or more, and I no longer have my own shop. And I will not pay Porsche what they now charge for a car that’s awash in excess I don’t like, don’t want, and won’t pay for. Time marches on, and we either keep pace or die unhappy.
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I'm not investing in a discussion on Y2K climate change but rather want to mention that climate change is cyclical in our 4.5 billion-year-old earth. The last human ice age was 10-40K years ago(Bering Strait bridge to the Americas). However, there was a more recent "mini ice age" that reached its peak in the 14th-early 15th Century A.D. when former colonies of Norweigan and Icelandic Vikings , who lived in SW Greenland, had to abandon their previously successful farming settlements due to the untenable frigid conditions and ,largely, returned to Norway. The indigenuous Dorset and Inuit, who were also guilty of bloody raids against the Vikings, eventually incorporated Greenland into their expanding hunting grounds. For me, I can't ignore the historic and cyclical nature of climate change.
Marinero
Why Did Greenland's Vikings Vanish? - Smithsonian Magazine
https://www.smithsonianmag.com › history › why-gree...
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This seems to be an all too often ignored aspect of the discussion. Since I am an (uneducated in all things climate) observer and certainly not a scientist, I can't claim first hand factual knowledge of the subject matter and therefore wouldn't be fooling anybody if I tried to offer an opinion that sounds as if I do have that knowledge in depth, but I can say I appreciate when somebody adds this point of consideration among the many that come up in discussion. Originally Posted by Marinero
Back to expensive archtops, reading through this thread and thinking about my own history, I can offer this story...
In the late 1970s for a few years, I was a sideman in a union trio that played decent supper clubs, resorts, and the Holiday Inn/hotel circuit in the US and Canada. I was in my 20s and our band leader was in his mid 40s. On one occasion, he took us to visit a friend of his who had toured with Johnny Smith from time to time. This occasion was my first direct introduction to jazz guitar and chord melody. The guy was probably in his 50s or 60s at that point (to me, anybody middle age or older was "old"). Anyway, he played wonderful solo chord melody for me, though I really didn't know the repertoire very much yet, having grown up on top 40 radio. I was quickly learning, since much of the band's repertoire came from the Great American Songbook material.
What I remember was his guitar. It was a Gibson archtop, though I didn't know anything about such guitars yet so I don't recall the model. He had it for a long time, so it was old even then. What I remember was that he let me play it. It played so smooth and sounded so smooth and warm. I never forgot that, and also recall thinking that I could never own a guitar like that. I have not played many really decent archtops since, though I have owned at various times a brand new late 90s Gibson ES-175 (a real clunker as I recall, especially compared to a 1950s model that I got to play once that was light as a feather) and an early 1970s Gibson Johnny Smith that was in the process of self-destructing as the gasses from the pick guard ate away at the electronics. That guitar had been stolen from, and recovered back to, its previous owner and had some damage, so I got it at a good price and got my money back when I sold it.
Other than the Johnny Smith, any other archtop I played simply didn't measure up to that old guy's archtop. None had that smoothness in sound or play - until I picked up that 1995 Gibson Citation. Now, THAT was what I had been wanting all these years. I had to have it. Fortunately, we have always lived debt-free and our mortgage is long paid off. I had just received a small inheritance, enough to buy that guitar and still have a few bucks remaining.
I am not a collector, nor am I rich, though I am white, so at least part of the speculation around here is true in my own case.
What happened with this guitar is the same thing that I do with people. I have a hard time remembering names, but I always remember faces and sound of voice. With guitars, I may not remember the model, but I always remember how they feel and sound if these aspects are memorable to me. When everybody in the shop was going crazy over how this Citation looked (absolutely mint with nothing wrong or replaced), I was going crazy over the sound and feel. I remember that sound and feel from way back in the 1970s, and had finally found it again. I have no reason to collect archtops, and this one gets played every day. If it is displayed, that is only because it is on my guitar stand so it can be played. For me, it was pure luck that the money and the guitar appeared within the same time frame. I only need (read: want) one archtop, but will keep my Eastman around so I have something to take to play out if the occasion arises. The Gibson will stay home safe, but it is definitely my daily player.
TonyLast edited by tbeltrans; 08-30-2022 at 10:34 AM.
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That's good Tony.
Enjoy that guitar.
It sounds like a winner.
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So this is a common talking point. Originally Posted by Marinero
You didn't mention that the river Thames froze over in the 18th and 19th century and people used to have parties on it, or that there was viniculture in medieval England (the thing you sometimes hear about Greenland being Green in the early Middle Ages is not true - it turns out the Vikings were just as much practitioners of dodgy PR as the fossil fuel industry). TBF there's viniculture in England now, but English wine tends to be a premium product.
So yeah, there's been some historic fluctuations in the past few hundred years, some local, and over a larger timescale, obviously global, such as the Ice Age.
According to recent research the medieval warm period and mini ice age were not really comparable to the global change in climate seen today
The Climate Epochs That Weren't
In fact the counterintuitive nature of climate change may mean we actually might see a return to a colder climate in the UK and other areas of northern Europe due to the collapse of the Greenland ice shelf introducing colder water to the northern Atlantic and shutting down the Gulf Stream. (In terms of latitude, the UK is comparable to British Columbia - Scotland is on the same parallel as Moscow so we 'should' be colder than we are.)
(Also, when I was a lad, you could read the cause of the MIA was a solar minimum; in fact it was fashionable for a while for astronomers to attribute global warming to solar variability (I remember thinking that when I was at uni). It's now understood that the effect of solar forcings on climate are a relatively minor contribution.)
to give an idea of the scale of the change that changes in average global temperature was around 6C cooler, which doesn't sound like much but was enough to cause radical changes in sea level, coastal geography, massive glaciation and so on. The UK was joined to the mainland and there was a whole area of land to the east archeologists call 'Doggerland' which has now been swallowed up by the North Sea.
We have also already exceeded the early Holocene thermal maximum. This graph may be instructive.
You can see a small dip of around 0.5 C which corresponds with the MIA. Notice as of 2016 the global average temperature is up 0.9. I believe we are now at 1.1.
It's true that there have been huge changes in global climate over the course of our species, but not during industrial civilisation. It's also the case that I find the science extremely compelling that the warming is anthropogenic in nature , and therefore we do in fact have some measure of control over it. Over the long term, human management of the carbon cycle may help us stabilise the global climate from natural fluctuations, but that's science fiction atm.
If you are interested in learning more about the science of AGW I would say I have a good non-specialist understanding of the science having a physics background, and I am happy to address any points you think you might have.
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Well, I've enjoyed this post! Thanks, Christian! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Otherwise, regarding arch top guitars. Gibson guitars were always expensive. Occasionally I get the idea that finding an L5CT or similar would be a nice sound for me. But, I lose interest after a few minutes. It's just a photo.
Yes, I really want to play one of those Citations, or (Super400, etc) when I see the photos!
I saw them online, I just couldn't bring myself to write a check for $10,000 or $15,000 just to see if I really love the instruments after receiving the shipment.
But for a really big electric/reverb and fat sound I play my two Historic Les Paul, and occasionally the 59RI ES-175.
I haven't found anything that sounds better to me. Depends on what you like.
I don't think the high archtop price matters though. You can't spend the money after you are dead.
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Good points in your post, and certainly an interesting thread all around. I wouldn't buy an expensive archtop online/from pictures either. One difference for me between that and my experience is that I actually went to the local shop that had the guitar and sat down and played it. For me, that makes all the difference in buying experience. I simply don't buy guitars online. If it isn't locally available to try and buy, I do without. Originally Posted by PDeville
Of course, that has nothing to do with all the other aspects such as whether one has the cash on hand, whether one's financial priorities would allow for such a purchase, etc. I have long felt that "try before you buy" is the way to go. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for those who live in an area where such guitars are never available.
Had a nice L5 been available locally at probably half the price of the Citation, I may well have gotten that and saved a pile of money and been perfectly happy. Alas, that was not the case, but I have no regrets with the Citation either.
Tony
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The only fly in that ointment is unpredictable longevity. Our parents and their siblings lived to ripe old ages, one reaching 100, one 99, one 94, and several making it to their early 90s. My sister's in her 80s and still quite strong and independent - and I'm only a few years behind her. So the odds are that I'll also be around for at least a few more years. My prime responsibility is to make sure my wife has everything she'll need when I'm gone, given the equally high probability that I'll predecease her. Statistics don't lie. The old joke is just an old joke: Originally Posted by PDeville
Q. Why do married men die before their wives do?
A....because they want to.
I sure can't take it with me. But I'll rest more peacefully in the ground (or the urn - I'm starting to favor cremation) knowing I've left my wife some resources to keep her comfortable and safe. Besides, she doesn't play the guitar
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Good points, and certainly a very responsible outlook. This also points up the vast differences in everybody's individual situations. Any guitar purchase I have made during the 39 years of my marriage, have been done with money that was not a part of our budget - bonuses, in retirement, I took short term contract engineering positions, and then the inheritance. Before we spent anything in retirement, we made sure all the needs were covered and prior to retirement, saving for retirement was the priority. We made sure our mortgage was paid off long before retirement since we didn't feel that having any kind of debt going into retirement was a good idea. In so doing, we also had that much more to save for retirement. I am not saying everybody should live like this since we all have our individual circumstances, this is just how we have chosen to do it. My wife's family typically lives only into their mid-70s or so, while mine seems to live well into their 90s. This wasn't a consideration for us, but it is interesting nonetheless. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The only fly in that ointment is unpredictable longevity. Our parents and their siblings lived to ripe old ages, one reaching 100, one 99, one 94, and several making it to their early 90s. My sister's in her 80s and still quite strong and independent - and I'm only a few years behind her. So the odds are that I'll also be around for at least a few more years. My prime responsibility is to make sure my wife has everything she'll need when I'm gone, given the equally high probability that I'll predecease her. Statistics don't lie. The old joke is just an old joke:
Q. Why do married men die before their wives do?
A....because they want to.
I sure can't take it with me. But I'll rest more peacefully in the ground (or the urn - I'm starting to favor cremation) knowing I've left my wife some resources to keep her comfortable and safe. Besides, she doesn't play the guitar
Tony
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Thanks, it was a welcome change from grinding through Mick Goodrick cycles. I was just waiting for someone to mention the mini ice age… ;-) Originally Posted by PDeville
for my part unless I found a box i fell in love with in a shop and had ten grand burning a hole in my pocket (disclosure, I don’t have time to go to guitar shops and I don’t have any money) I think I’d much rather build up a relationship with a builder that was more than just commissioning someone sight unseen. But I’m an old romantic.Otherwise, regarding arch top guitars. Gibson guitars were always expensive. Occasionally I get the idea that finding an L5CT or similar would be a nice sound for me. But, I lose interest after a few minutes. It's just a photo.
Yes, I really want to play one of those Citations, or (Super400, etc) when I see the photos!
I saw them online, I just couldn't bring myself to write a check for $10,000 or $15,000 just to see if I really love the instruments after receiving the shipment.
But for a really big electric/reverb and fat sound I play my two Historic Les Paul, and occasionally the 59RI ES-175.
I haven't found anything that sounds better to me. Depends on what you like.
I don't think the high archtop price matters though. You can't spend the money after you are dead.
Mind you, my completely standard stock 335 turned out great. So why not a new L5?
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That seems like a great approach, building up a relationship with a builder. I had a bad experience with a single builder built acoustic (flat top) guitar. I didn't commission it or even meet the builder. I bought the guitar used. When the neck moved, probably due to environmental changes in humidity, I wanted to make a truss rod adjustment. It turned out that this particular builder made his own custom truss rod wrenches and he couldn't find the one he used for this guitar and he didn't supply one with the guitar. I ended up selling the guitar with full disclosure. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I figure that by sticking with the major guitar companies, the likelihood of being in this type of situation would be fairly slim to non-existent. In addition, the bigger guitar companies (I think...) would build their guitars to last rather than going broke with customer repair claims. I could be completely wrong on that, so don't hold me to it and please do correct me if that is incorrect. Also, there seem to be enough skilled guitar techs who work on Gibson guitars around who could handle any problem I might have with my guitar. If I had to sell at some point, everybody who plays guitar has likely heard of Gibson. I sometimes wonder how some of the more obscure builders' guitars will fare years down the road on the used market.
Anyway, if you establish a relationship with a given builder, maybe the problem I had could be avoided. Of course, you would be dealing directly with the builder on your future guitar, while I bought mine used and the builder really didn't have any allegiance to me as a customer.
Tony
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