-
I'm thinking of replacing the tuners on my 1970 L5. New replacement Kluson Sealfasts are much more comfortable than the originals which are worn, but i'm not sure whether to buy the plastic or the metal version.
Pros and cons are mostly clear to me except for one thing: would the lesser weight of the plastic knobs change the overall sound of the guitar? If yes, what change is there to expect?
Kluson Sealfast Diecast Tuning Machines 3 Per Side - Hardware & Parts from WD Music UK Limited UK
-
08-13-2022 07:14 AM
-
Never tried myself, but some people claim it affects sustain. You could try an experiment by gently clamping an extra weight to the headstock roughly similar to the difference between the two sets.
-
From a practical perspective metal parts tend to be more robust and less likely to crack or break.
-
Everything’s got an influence to the guitars sound. Too less weight on the headstock may cause wolftones, always a good thing to have a counterweight to the Trussrod.
-
Thanks, if i already had the plastic keys that would be the perfect solution ;-), maybe i can give it a try on another of my guitars with plastic keys (L7), but the result might differ from the L5.
Originally Posted by burchyk
-
Thanks, this sounds very interesting! Does this also mean that it might be possible to get rid of a wolftone by adding weigh on the headstock? Originally Posted by Stefan Eff
-
This video might be helpful
-
Not sure, but check the video above. I‘ve experienced the total lack of deadspots while using a fat neckplate as a counterweight to the truss rod on my Tellys. Originally Posted by JazzNote
-
This can be a solution with Fender-type instruments where the neck is bolted onto the (solid) body. My Suhr Strat came with such a "Fat Finger" clamp installed and I left it there ever since - the guitar sounds and feels right the way it is.
I have experienced no difference when swapping out old plastic-knob Klusons with modern metal-knob versions on my archtop guitars, neither in the feel of the different weight nor sound-wise.
-
It's the other way round ;-). The ones on my L5 are made from metal .... Originally Posted by gitman
-
Are we really discussing the tonal impact of metal vs plastic tuner buttons? Just the buttons? Really?
-
Yes, Jim, we are.
Seems to me it would be far more relevant to talk about the importance of tuner post design. I find that the old Kluson style safety posts sound much better than locking posts or standard barrel posts. Apparently George Benson agrees because my Ibanez GB 10 came with posts like that, too. 
(Actually, I just like the neat look of not having the cut end of the string sticking out, as well as not poking my fingers). And I suppose that the proper term is a capstan rather than a post, now that I think about it.
My experience is that replacing the metal tuner buttons with plastic tuner buttons can help reduce the neck heaviness of a guitar, but had no impact that I could hear on tone. I hate neck dive, so I've made this conversion a couple of times. I have not heard a discernible change in tone. The "everything affects tone" theory is overstated; the issue is whether it affects tone in a noticeable manner. You might find some difference on oscilloscope that is not audible to human hearing. When checked with blind testing, the stuff rarely holds up; heck, in the hi-fi audio world, people can't hear the difference between thousand dollar speaker cables and coat hanger wire when blind testing is done, and yet people insist they can hear differences if they know which is which.
You can find plenty of Gibson L5s with plastic buttons vs. metal buttons and everybody seems to think they still sound like an L5.
-
It may be a valid topic. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
I have two late model ES-175's. A 1997 and a 2017. The 1997 has Kluson tuners with plastic buttons and the 2017 has Grover tuners with metal buttons. The 2017 has a bit more sustain. But the 2017 is 10 ounces heavier (some of that is the tuners) and a pinned bridge, so declaring that the metal buttons increases sustain may not be accurate.
Tuner buttons are not that expensive. It could be worth experimenting.
-
Some people say the guitar with a leather strap sounds more jazzy.
-
it's absolutely voluntary to join the discussion ..... what may be a valid topic for some may not be for others ;-) Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
-
may i kindly remind you that this thread is about tuners, not about straps ;-) Originally Posted by Jerzy
Some people say the guitar with a leather strap sounds more jazzy.
-
If we are talking about identical tuners with different buttons, I highly doubt that there would be much tonal difference. People have said they notice a difference between brands, which presumably includes weight; I would think the main body of the tuner would be where that difference is located.
I tend to like lighter (vintage Kluson) on Fenders. My jazz guitars have Grovers Rotomatics and Imperials. I much prefer the latter. On an L5 I would try to get close to the original look if possible, which is the triangular gold I believe, but that's just me.Last edited by bluejaybill; 08-14-2022 at 12:24 PM.
-
You're absolutely right. Carry on and I'll be on my way. Originally Posted by JazzNote
-
I've done this. I have a light archtop that came with metal buttons, and was neck heavy. I replaced them with ebony buttons. I can't remember the exact difference in weight, but it was significant. I cannot hear any difference in tone at all, and I've tried. The only thing the lightweight buttons made was to eliminate the neck dive, with absolutely no difference in tone that I can detect. I later replaced the entire set of tuners for lighter ones, and still can detect no difference in tone.
-
Depends on how very close to critical imbalance you happen to be. Short answer: Very unlikely. Wolftones generally occur in frequency mismatches between the top and the back that result in phase issues (similar to 'beats' when frequencies are so close they alternately add and rob each other's amplitude waveforms). Originally Posted by JazzNote
When I was working with Al, he built a classical with a relatively light mahogany. The customer wanted the neck reduced for a smaller profile and when the guitar was strung up again it had a marked loss of sustain. We drilled a hole through the peghead between the slots, poured in liquid lead and plugged the hole with grain matched plug. The guitar had more sustain than it had before.
But it should be noted that this only works with you're "at the edge of the curve" and most of the time a guitar's frequency signature is well within the curve which means the added or lost mass is so small as to be imperceptable. Or practically, the reduction of weight and freedom of movement far outweighs (pun intended) any difference in sustain.
Mass is linear. Stiffness is exponential. Unless you're near the edge of the curve, a lot of mass either way doesn't effect the stiffness.
-
Nothing compared with the sonic improvement achieved with a beret, a pair of classy shades and a stool. Originally Posted by Jerzy
Some people say the guitar with a leather strap sounds more jazzy.
-
Jazznote,
I just replaced the tuners on a Guitar I just bought. Went from Super Rotomatics with metal stairstep knobs to Super Rotomatics with Pearloid knobs. There was absolutely no difference in the sound. But the guitar became more comfortable to balance.
The Pearloid knobs are one less thing to worry about scratching too.
Joe D
-
The weight difference between metal and plastic tuner buttons is surprisingly a lot (full size Grover Rotomatic D shaped buttons in my case). But the Grovers with the plastic buttons still weigh a more than Klusons with metal ones, Originally Posted by sgosnell
-
Tuners vary a lot in weight, even without any buttons. I've changed lots of them, and I've never noticed any difference in tone before or after.
-
FWIW, I recently changed from Gotoh vintage style with plastic buttons to Kluson Revolution with metal buttons. I've also gone the other way on a different guitar. The actual tuners are about the same weight, but with metal buttons the Revolutions are a little heavier than Gotohs. I don't notice any difference in either the balance of the guitar or the sound (true for both of the swaps I did). I guess if there's a really large weight difference between tuners and they're being installed on alight guitar maybe there's a more apparent difference, but I'm skeptical absent controlled testing/measurement.
Reply With Quote
Traynor YVC-20WR
Today, 06:50 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos