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Yes, some Audiophile’s say the same thing. But because some can’t hear it, doesn’t mean that there’s no difference.
Originally Posted by BBGuitar
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08-04-2022 11:36 AM
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Actually 2 from the same year made. 1979 OD Specials 50&100 watt version 1x12” Combos. I preferred the 50 overall to the 100 watt one.
In those days they were not that well known but still more than a Mesa Boogie. There weren’t the plethora of amps and pedals as in the recent 20 years or more.
I think we confuse myth with reality way too much. Rarity and Rock Star association make for great storytelling and sells magazines, Lol! There are many variations offered by Ceriatone that are actual Dumble circuit designs. And with some further tweaking will emulate very closely various Dumbles.
I had a freind who was literally ripped off by Howard Dumble. So in protest in 1990 after unsuccessfully communicating with Howard, I sold my Dumble. Not ever looking back, I don’t regret it and sure the money would be a nice thing. But I feel strongly about certain principles and my freind was more important than $$$
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I have from almost the very beginning of my guitar playing (80s) to now used both tube and SS.
I love both for what they can do.
They just sound different. There are things I like about both.
I have never been able to get a SS to sound like a tube amp. I have many AITB pedals. I have been using the AITB and equivalents since the 80s. They only work so well.
However the new Universal Audio AITB pedals might have finally achieved what so far has been impossible.
The new(ish) Tone Master series is also very impressive. I think that it is pretty close. Here is my take on the TM stuff:
I have always wanted to own a twin. I have never owned a twin for one reason. It is just too heavy for me.
When the TM twin came out, I was super excited and was convinced that I would buy one. I a/b both the TM deluxe and twin against the real thing.
Everything was going good, until I hit it with dirt. (That might not be a problem for people who only or mostly play jazz. I have always done a bunch of different stuff. At one point the most money I had made was gigging in a Reggae band).
The TM started to get fizzy. I typically buy gear that I can use in most situations I find myself in. On the other hand, if I am trying out a guitar or a time based fx at a store, I will use the TM. It works great at a volume that would be pretty loud in an equivalent tube amp.
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Absolutely!! There are some wonderful players getting tone every bit the equal of any Dumble from very pedestrian amps. Chris Cain has always used a Musicman RD112-50 (which, BTW, has a SS preamp with one tube in the front end) and consistently gets amazing tone with no effects - he doesn't even use reverb. I've been a huge fan since his first album came out. And I had the great honor and thrill of backing him at a major blues festival a few years ago - he is truly one of the unsung greats, and a very nice man to boot. If you don't know his playing, check it out and go buy more! He does it all with nothing but a plain old guitar and an old Music Man amp. Originally Posted by jads57
And here's a great gear-focused interview with some of his fabulous playing -
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Wow! Chris Cain is a great blues player who I’d never heard of till now. You’re right - he gets great tone from that Musicman RD 112-50. I hope he’s still around, as I’d like to hear him perform. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
AKA
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Those Musicman amps are great. If I remember correctly Mark Knopfler (Dire Straight) used one. Also I think many pedal steel player did. My memory also tells me that they were heavy. When I was able to a/b the 1x12 and the 2x12, I liked the 2x12 one more. They are hybrid and I think it does make a difference, but what I remember, and what is true are not always synchronized.
Another SS amp that is not thought about often is the one BB king used. I think its’ name is Lab Series (?). At one point I saw one for close to 100$. That was about 10 years ago. Last time I saw one it was 700$. That was recent. Not sure if it would be worth that to me.
Again if I remember right, it has a moog filter in it. My memory is such that at 100$ it was a great amp. Then again at 100$ anything loud and clean would probably be a great deal.
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He's still around and tours with Robben Ford from time to time - they're old friends and one amazing pair to hear! I have everything he ever recorded. Originally Posted by AKA
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I have to admit, that's the first time I've heard the clean tone of a Quilter favorably compared to a Dumble! High praise indeed. Originally Posted by jads57
But you'd better leave the lead tone alone...
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For as long as I can remember, there have been hybrid amps with one or more or tubes in the preamp, or even in the power amp behind a s/s preamp. Just marketing gimmicks, as these seem to have no place in the eternal either/or debate? Yet, Music Man combos had a following and still do despite some servicing challenges. As well, the Polytone Cult persists, and the Quilter Sect is growing. Fender's Tone Master apparently do well. My point is, the demarcation line is not clear-cut, and jazz guitarists have always been on both sides of the fence. So have I, although mostly on the s/s side.
The two leading "Indie" s/s makers today are Quilter and DV Mark. Not mainstream but for connoisseurs, i.e. mainly gigging musicians. Both have developed their own technology, while some others rely on the "generic" IcePower power source/power amp modules. In 2015 they were, tonally, worlds apart, with Quilter over-achieving the Fender twang and DV Mark at the other extreme with a darker, more Polytone-like sound. Subsequently, some convergence has occurred, and the current Quilter crop is quite balanced and extremely versatile. Then there's Henriksen, early in the game but now making the best of the IcePower platform; quite exclusive in terms of pricing and distribution. It's possible that Fender's Tone Masters outnumber all these. And it's pretty certain that the heyday of traditional tube amp makers such as Marshall and Orange is further and further in the past.
Finally: I disagree with whoever who said that tonal subtleties matter especially in a band setting. My experience from playing in various jazz ensebles and jam sessions suggests the opposite. Your tone blends in with the rest, and if you're responsive, you adjust it for a more perfect union. It doesn't take a luthier-made guitar (which few of us have) or a Dumble (even fewer) to stand out, because you are supposed to stand in, in the first place. Tube or s/s, the audience won't recognize the difference.
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[QUOTE=nevershouldhavesoldit;1212237]Absolutely!! There are some wonderful players getting tone every bit the equal of any Dumble from very pedestrian amps. Chris Cain has always used a Musicman RD112-50 (which, BTW, has a SS preamp with one tube in the front end) and consistently gets amazing tone with no effects - he doesn't even use reverb. I've been a huge fan since his first album came out. And I had the great honor and thrill of backing him at a major blues festival a few years ago - he is truly one of the unsung greats, and a very nice man to boot. If you don't know his playing, check it out and go buy more! He does it all with nothing but a plain old guitar and an old Music Man amp.
Yessir, Chris Cain is the REAL DEAL blues/RnB etc. guitarist. One of the great players of our generation.
I had the pleasure of meeting him at Terry Hiatt's home where Chris was having his guitar re-fretted. He was wearing his trademark bib overalls! And he was a humble, sweet guy.
Check out his website and all of the other pro guitarists who love his playing.
Chris Cain | Blues Guitar Master
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I’m going to try and catch him on the 19th in Santa Cruz at the Kuumbwa Jazz Center. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I really wonder what "that tube thing" actually is. I think it can often be a placebo. I love my DV Mark Jazz 12 and it sounds just like the 80s Mesa Studio 22 I had on loan for a long while, without the weight.
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To me, “that tube thing” is a nuance to the amp’s sound. Although hard to describe, in the room, a tube amp will sound and feel more organic and soft. A solid state amp, on the other hand, is more direct and precise. SS is a bit too perfect, whereas tubes are pleasingly imperfect. Originally Posted by mr quick
In the end, both amp types provide good sounds with positive attributes, just different.
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My 1964 Ampeg Reverberocket didn't sound all that different from the Little Jazz. Originally Posted by mr quick
The Ampeg's reverb sounded better to me, but the Ampeg had a way of fuzzing out chords a little bit that stay clean on the LJ.
My wife, who has a very good ear, couldn't tell them apart -- the eq setting made a much bigger difference.
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By the end of 1966, Gibson, Fender, Vox and smaller manufacturers like Magnatone were making solid-state amplifiers. Who among the jazz guitarists of the late 60s and 70s used them, if any? I know the answer would not prove anything, but it would be interesting to know if anyone did not notice or care about the difference, if any exists.
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thx for the Chris Cain videos, didn't know this bluesman and I like !
I hear Albert King in every corner of his phrasing and I like it a lot.
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Hi Litterick
Those early SS amps were truly dreadful. Very sharp toned and brittle. The power output transistors had a habit of blowing under rick volune loads. When Fender brought their series they super hyped them, my local store had one of each model (some for years lol). But once out it flopped fast; i think that flop after so much hype on Fender’s part caused a lot of hesitation. Took a few years till technology caught up with sound needs.
Early 70’s i was playing pretty regularly and really don’t recall seeing much if any SS till later mid 70’s. Twins and Supers Ruled!)))
(Living/gigging in central New Jersey, Ampeg was all over the place. The factory was just up the road.)
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that is all very interesting and useful Originally Posted by jazzkritter
info , thanks JK
post more WW stories here if you don’t mind , i’m sure it would be interesting to all the jazz folks
Walter was some kind of amp genius !
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I’ve been having fun playing with
whatever is available at the venue
these days
Played through one of these the other
day at a jam
Cort
AF30 | AF Series Amplifier
and just for a clean sound
and it was fine !
——————-
Ive also been playing direct into
small PA systems , just guitar , guitar lead , straight into the PA
and that works fine too
this is with an Ibanez laminated jazz box with humbuckers
these are just very small rooms
maybe 40 people in the audience
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although this is working fine for
me ,I don’t know why but i feel like i should be using
a preamp of some sort
I can’t get my HBenton American Sound to work very
well for me ,
that might be my fault cos other people are getting good
results with those (types) of pedals .....
and now I’m wanting to
try out one of those UA Dream 65 (blackface type) modelling pedals
or the ‘Woodrow’ one (fender tweed type)
their demo videos sound great
theyre not cheap tho !Last edited by pingu; 08-06-2022 at 08:11 AM.
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And no slacker in defense electronics
People talk about Dumble a lot, but WW was doing a switching power supply with discreet components in the mid 70’s. That was quite an accomplishment.Last edited by jazzkritter; 08-06-2022 at 07:38 AM. Reason: Mistyped
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I used Pearce amps for most of my career. Not Class D, 80's old school solid state. Still a bit heavy with a big toroidal transformer. The most tubey sounding solid sate amp EVER. Finally switched to Quilter MPs for the convenience of the small light combo. Not as real as Pearce, but I'm probably the only one to notice.
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Speaking of SS and Quilter, anyone here using the new Mach 3?
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I just played my first gig with the Quilter Mach 3 after years of Mach 2 as my main amp for everything (mostly straight ahead jazz and a few pop gigs as well). The Mach 3 sounded great (so many setting though so I had to experiment a bit to find a sound I was looking for). Really clear and live sounding without being harsh or brittle at all. Open back feels quite different than the closed back of the Mach 2. I think I can definitely get used to it. Also only 21 lbs! I'm a happy camper
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[QUOTE=Gitfiddler;1212270]
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Wow, never heard of this guy -- amazing!! I've been listening to him all week now -- so much fun energy, and great lines! [The Music Man 112RD was my first "real" amp in the early 80's ... but I never sounded like Chris!]
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That perhaps accounts for the scarcity on the second-hand market. They didn't last. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
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