The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hey guys, I'm in the market for a new solid body electric.

    I've been a die hard Julian Lage fan for as long as I can remember and really dig the tone he gets from his new 470 JL. Unfortunately I don't have the cash to dish out what's effectively 10 000 Canadian dollars.

    Does anybody have any recommendations for guitars that may be remotely similar in the 1000-2500$ price range? I'm really digging the Dynasonics but am struggling to find something that has them in this price range.

    For the time being I'm seriously eyeing a G5230T Electromatic Jet (Gretsch Guitars G5230T Electromatic Jet FT Single-Cut With Bigsby, Black Walnut Fingerboard - Black | Long & McQuade) seeing as how it appears to be remotely close to the Duo Jet he played in his Love Hurts era.

    I could hypothetically replace the filtertrons with T Armonds, but I'm not super experienced when it comes to guitar tinkering.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Check out the Guild Aristocrat. It is a hollow archtop with no f holes in Les Paul sized body. That seems to be a good comp.

    Also, there is a p90 model, which might get you close to the JL pickups/sound.

    And as a bonus, you can get some at < 5lbs!

  4. #3

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    Look out for a used Gretsch Vintage Select '53 Duo Jet. The model number is G6128T-53.
    It's essentially a modern reproduction of the model that JL was playing before the Collings.
    There are two used examples on Reverb right now $2350 and $2400.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Campbell_jazz
    Check out the Guild Aristocrat. It is a hollow archtop with no f holes in Les Paul sized body. That seems to be a good comp.

    Also, there is a p90 model, which might get you close to the JL pickups/sound.

    And as a bonus, you can get some at < 5lbs!
    The Guild aristocrat is a lot closer to the Collings compared to the Duo Jet.

  6. #5
    Interesting. It looks like a great guitar, unfortunately I'm having a little trouble finding one I could try out around where I'm located.

    I feel like I may be missing something but is there a reason the p90s would sound closer to the JL model? I was under the impression the Ron Ellis pickups were effectively DynaSonics.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRadiant
    Interesting. It looks like a great guitar, unfortunately I'm having a little trouble finding one I could try out around where I'm located.

    I feel like I may be missing something but is there a reason the p90s would sound closer to the JL model? I was under the impression the Ron Ellis pickups were effectively DynaSonics.
    The pkups in the Guild are Franz reissues which sound different to P90‘s and different to Dynas. The pkups in the Collings are extreme expensive Ellisonics, another different beast.

    It‘s the construction that‘s pretty similar- both guitars are real hollowbodies (mahogany) and short scaled.

  8. #7

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    I know nobody asked but, man, it's really disappointing to me that people are considering a Gretsch as an alternative to some "Julian Lage guitar". The Gretsch Duo Jet is the real thing and the JL wouldn't exist if they didn't have the Gretsch to copy. You should get a Gretsch and move on from the marketing hype.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    I know nobody asked but, man, it's really disappointing to me that people are considering a Gretsch as an alternative to some "Julian Lage guitar". The Gretsch Duo Jet is the real thing and the JL wouldn't exist if they didn't have the Gretsch to copy. You should get a Gretsch and move on from the marketing hype.
    Wrong.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    I know nobody asked but, man, it's really disappointing to me that people are considering a Gretsch as an alternative to some "Julian Lage guitar". The Gretsch Duo Jet is the real thing and the JL wouldn't exist if they didn't have the Gretsch to copy. You should get a Gretsch and move on from the marketing hype.
    I don't agree entirely with this, but alot of it IS true. Collings did make some changes tho. Probably very noticeable ones if you had both in your hands. Probably alot less noticeable to anyone listening to a recording of both guitars plugged in.

    But that's Collings: not so much original designs, more like "Uber-tweaks" of others: like their 335 copies... I'd buy an I35-LC before a Gibson 335, if I could afford it.

  11. #10

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    Gibson Blueshawk, used of course. Not too popular so pretty affordable.

  12. #11

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    Not sure if Guild Aristocrat would sound similar to what you're after, but I really like the upper tier Korean Guilds. My T-50 Slim is wonderful.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    I know nobody asked but, man, it's really disappointing to me that people are considering a Gretsch as an alternative to some "Julian Lage guitar". The Gretsch Duo Jet is the real thing and the JL wouldn't exist if they didn't have the Gretsch to copy. You should get a Gretsch and move on from the marketing hype.
    We‘ve had this discussion before.
    The Collings looks a lot like a Jet but that’s all:

    The Jet is a chambered solidbody guitar whereas the Collings is a full hollowbody guitar.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Eff
    We‘ve had this discussion before.
    The Collings looks a lot like a Jet but that’s all:

    The Jet is a chambered solidbody guitar whereas the Collings is a full hollowbody guitar.
    One of them has wood cut out of the body to make it resonant/hollow.

    The other is hollow but also has a 4” wide block along the length of the body. Additionally it comes with a non-optional > 1 lb bigsby tremolo mounted to the top, further reducing resonance and adding weight.

    The Collings comes with dynasonic pickup copies that don’t have adjustable pole pieces. Any of us who have played dynasonics know how sensitive the sound is to the height of those magnets, so if you want to balance it for your preferred strings (like a wound third as a lot of jazz players use) you’re screwed. But I guess this creates a perfect marketing opportunity for a D’Addario Julian Lage Signature string set specially designed to pair with the 470 JL.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    But I guess this creates a perfect marketing opportunity for a D’Addario Julian Lage Signature string set specially designed to pair with the 470 JL.
    OMG for real? That exists?

    I'll even throw a good Gibson P90 Les Paul into the mix... on "Squint", all the tunes are played on the Collings except "Emily"- that's his P90 Les Paul goldtop. Does it sound different? Yes. ALOT different? eh.....

    I still think the 470JL is Uber-cool and unique; I just can't see myself spending that much money (says the guy who recently dropped $5K on a PRS DGT). I guess if I was primarily a jazz player, and I got to try a 470JL and loved it, I'd spend it. It is unique. HOW unique really depends on the user.

  16. #15

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    Julian has lately been seen playing a telecaster with a P90 in the neck. Go for the sensible option.


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  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    One of them has wood cut out of the body to make it resonant/hollow.

    The other is hollow but also has a 4” wide block along the length of the body. Additionally it comes with a non-optional > 1 lb bigsby tremolo mounted to the top, further reducing resonance and adding weight.

    The Collings comes with dynasonic pickup copies that don’t have adjustable pole pieces. Any of us who have played dynasonics know how sensitive the sound is to the height of those magnets, so if you want to balance it for your preferred strings (like a wound third as a lot of jazz players use) you’re screwed. But I guess this creates a perfect marketing opportunity for a D’Addario Julian Lage Signature string set specially designed to pair with the 470 JL.
    Jets are chambered to reduce weight.

    The hollow Collings got a Bigsby to add mass and to achieve that chorus-like tone only a Bigsby generates.
    The Ellisonics aren‘t Copies, they are custom pickups designed (together with Julian Lage) by Ron Ellis.

  18. #17

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    Ok those aren’t dynasonics, they just look exactly the same. Ok it’s not a jet it just looks exactly the same. The pickups are called “Ellisonics”!

    The Julian Lage fanboyism in this thread is too much for me. Next you’re going to tell me his Nacho isn’t a Telecaster because of the p90 and how it’s not a p90 because it was made by {name_drop_1} in collaboration with {name_drop_2}.

    Full disclosure, I have a Collings I-35, a Nacho caster, and a 1955 Duo Jet. Fan of some modern builders but you always have to give credit to the original.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
    Ok those aren’t dynasonics, they just look exactly the same. Ok it’s not a jet it just looks exactly the same. The pickups are called “Ellisonics”!

    The Julian Lage fanboyism in this thread is too much for me. Next you’re going to tell me his Nacho isn’t a Telecaster because of the p90 and how it’s not a p90 because it was made by {name_drop_1} in collaboration with {name_drop_2}.

    Full disclosure, I have a Collings I-35, a Nacho caster, and a 1955 Duo Jet. Fan of some modern builders but you always have to give credit to the original.
    Wrong again. No fanboyism, just facts. You should try too, it‘s cool.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Eff
    Wrong again. No fanboyism, just facts. You should try too, it‘s cool.
    Are you related to Lage or Collings or something? LOL You're very adept at making mountains out of molehills. But hey- perception is reality, right?

    Collings 470JL



    Gibson P90 Les Paul



    '53 Gretsch Jet w/Dynasonics

    FFWD to 19:30


    Different? Absolutely. Drastically different? I guess that depends upon an individual's ears AND HANDS. Next you'll tell us we "just can't hear as well as you do" or something similar. Do you have a 470JL yet? Or is all your superior knowledge of the instrument based solely on internet data?

    For the record, I prefer the Collings, and would love to have one. But saying there's nothing that can get close is silly; several guitars mentioned in this thread likely can. Collings doesn't use magic pixie dust or cast spells on their guitars. I'd bet an ES-Les Paul with P90s could get darn close to the Collings tone.

    I've never owned a P90 Les Paul or the 470JL, but I have extensive experience with Gretsch hollowbody guitars (with P90s and Dynasonics), Les Pauls, Teles with P90s, Teles with Dynasonics... The 470JL is unique. As is their "35" series. But both talking HEAVY influence from other guitars.

    As for the Ellisonics, they ARE Dynasonics: unadjustable Dynasonics. They are technically poor copies of Dynasonics, since the pole height adjustment was removed. I'm sure they sound great, but to act like they are nothing like Dynas and totally unique because Ellis wound them and removed the elevator mechanisms, well that's just silly. But we all live in our own little universes, don't we?

    CAME BACK TO ADD:
    I've been playing a long time. Been through alot of gear. I will say this: if you want a certain something, you have to buy that certain something. "Similar" never cuts it. I've tried over and over. An Epiphone 335 will not satisfy you if you want a Collings I35. A Gibson Blueshawk will not satisfy you if you want a Collings 470JL. A Gretsch Jet MIGHT... since that's where the 470JL inspiration came from. But "close" is always, in the end, a losing battle. Even tho the Collings is prohibitively expensive for most of us, if that's what you really want, only that will do. The rest will just be money spent trying to get you there cheaper, and you won't arrive. You will have to learn to love "similar" to be satisfied. I never was. Which is why I finally spent $5000 on a PRS DGT. And why, if I REALLY want one, I will spend even more on a 470JL.
    Last edited by ruger9; 07-30-2022 at 08:14 AM.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Are you related to Lage or Collings or something? LOL You're very adept at making mountains out of molehills. But hey- perception is reality, right?

    Collings 470JL



    Gibson P90 Les Paul



    '53 Gretsch Jet w/Dynasonics

    FFWD to 19:30


    Different? Absolutely. Drastically different? I guess that depends upon an individual's ears AND HANDS. Next you'll tell us we "just can't hear as well as you do" or something similar. Do you have a 470JL yet? Or is all your superior knowledge of the instrument based solely on internet data?

    For the record, I prefer the Collings, and would love to have one. But saying there's nothing that can get close is silly; several guitars mentioned in this thread likely can. Collings doesn't use magic pixie dust or cast spells on their guitars. I'd bet an ES-Les Paul with P90s could get darn close to the Collings tone.

    I've never owned a P90 Les Paul or the 470JL, but I have extensive experience with Gretsch hollowbody guitars (with P90s and Dynasonics), Les Pauls, Teles with P90s, Teles with Dynasonics... The 470JL is unique. As is their "35" series. But both talking HEAVY influence from other guitars.

    As for the Ellisonics, they ARE Dynasonics: unadjustable Dynasonics. They are technically poor copies of Dynasonics, since the pole height adjustment was removed. I'm sure they sound great, but to act like they are nothing like Dynas and totally unique because Ellis wound them and removed the elevator mechanisms, well that's just silly. But we all live in our own little universes, don't we?

    CAME BACK TO ADD:
    I've been playing a long time. Been through alot of gear. I will say this: if you want a certain something, you have to buy that certain something. "Similar" never cuts it. I've tried over and over. An Epiphone 335 will not satisfy you if you want a Collings I35. A Gibson Blueshawk will not satisfy you if you want a Collings 470JL. A Gretsch Jet MIGHT... since that's where the 470JL inspiration came from. But "close" is always, in the end, a losing battle. Even tho the Collings is prohibitively expensive for most of us, if that's what you really want, only that will do. The rest will just be money spent trying to get you there cheaper, and you won't arrive. You will have to learn to love "similar" to be satisfied. I never was. Which is why I finally spent $5000 on a PRS DGT. And why, if I REALLY want one, I will spend even more on a 470JL.
    I really need to be done with this thread, but wanted to +1 the last bit here and add:

    Collings and Nacho are modern builders who actually satisfied the “close enough” criterion for me. I’d love a Gibson 335 or Telecaster from the golden era, but those cost more than some luxury cars. Collings and Nacho are extremely talented at reproducing the feeling and sound of these guitars, one of them doing so very literally and the other with more interpretive liberty.

    What surprises me here is just that when we compare Collings/Nacho to their inspirations, the modern ones are what’s “close enough”. When we talk about the Gretsch copy, the relationship is reversed—as if the JL model somehow, magically maybe, possesses qualities never seen in a guitar before. The fact that few (maybe none) of us have even played the JL speaks volumes about the power of marketing hype.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Are you related to Lage or Collings or something? LOL You're very adept at making mountains out of molehills. But hey- perception is reality, right?

    Collings 470JL



    Gibson P90 Les Paul



    '53 Gretsch Jet w/Dynasonics

    FFWD to 19:30


    Different? Absolutely. Drastically different? I guess that depends upon an individual's ears AND HANDS. Next you'll tell us we "just can't hear as well as you do" or something similar. Do you have a 470JL yet? Or is all your superior knowledge of the instrument based solely on internet data?

    For the record, I prefer the Collings, and would love to have one. But saying there's nothing that can get close is silly; several guitars mentioned in this thread likely can. Collings doesn't use magic pixie dust or cast spells on their guitars. I'd bet an ES-Les Paul with P90s could get darn close to the Collings tone.

    I've never owned a P90 Les Paul or the 470JL, but I have extensive experience with Gretsch hollowbody guitars (with P90s and Dynasonics), Les Pauls, Teles with P90s, Teles with Dynasonics... The 470JL is unique. As is their "35" series. But both talking HEAVY influence from other guitars.

    As for the Ellisonics, they ARE Dynasonics: unadjustable Dynasonics. They are technically poor copies of Dynasonics, since the pole height adjustment was removed. I'm sure they sound great, but to act like they are nothing like Dynas and totally unique because Ellis wound them and removed the elevator mechanisms, well that's just silly. But we all live in our own little universes, don't we?

    CAME BACK TO ADD:
    I've been playing a long time. Been through alot of gear. I will say this: if you want a certain something, you have to buy that certain something. "Similar" never cuts it. I've tried over and over. An Epiphone 335 will not satisfy you if you want a Collings I35. A Gibson Blueshawk will not satisfy you if you want a Collings 470JL. A Gretsch Jet MIGHT... since that's where the 470JL inspiration came from. But "close" is always, in the end, a losing battle. Even tho the Collings is prohibitively expensive for most of us, if that's what you really want, only that will do. The rest will just be money spent trying to get you there cheaper, and you won't arrive. You will have to learn to love "similar" to be satisfied. I never was. Which is why I finally spent $5000 on a PRS DGT. And why, if I REALLY want one, I will spend even more on a 470JL.
    Why the hell are you so p.ssed???
    For the record: I don‘t have a „superior knowledge“. Believe me.

    I‘m playing guitar for more than 25 years and I‘m building guitars. That’s all. But where do you get your wisdom from („Perception is reality“)? Fortune cookies? Man, that sucks big time.

    We‘ve had a pointless discussion before a while ago, when you questioned facts about the 470-JL though Collings approved them in a Mail. Do you remember? Whew…And now you give us an insight into the working methods of Ron Ellis? You‘ve played the Ellisonics and then took them apart? Or is your insider knowledge based solely on youtube videos/soundfiles?

    I only took the liberty of correcting inaccurate informations in this thread. I‘ve recommended the Guild Aristocrat as an alternative to the Collings JL, which was the initial question.

    But I have no idea what has led to such a bizarre discussion. Strange, but ultimately so completely unimportant.
    Last edited by Stefan Eff; 07-31-2022 at 06:13 AM.

  23. #22

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    Damn, heated discussions about a gretsch on this forum, didnt see that coming. If it had been the epps 7 string maybe…

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Eff
    Why the hell are you so p.ssed???
    For the record: I don‘t have a „superior knowledge“. Believe me.

    I‘m playing guitar for more than 25 years and I‘m building guitars. That’s all. But where do you get your wisdom from („Perception is reality“)? Fortune cookies? Man, that sucks big time.

    We‘ve had a pointless discussion before a while ago, when you questioned facts about the 470-JL though Collings approved them in a Mail. Do you remember? Whew…And now you give us an insight into the working methods of Ron Ellis? You‘ve played the Ellisonics and then took them apart? Or is your insider knowledge based solely on youtube videos/soundfiles?

    I only took the liberty of correcting inaccurate informations in this thread. I‘ve recommended the Guild Aristocrat as an alternative to the Collings JL, which was the initial question.

    But I have no idea what has led to such a bizarre discussion. Strange, but ultimately so completely unimportant.
    haha not p*ssed, it just rubs me the wrong way when someone presents themselves as the "master of truth". The Collings in indeed unique. Is it indeed hollow... BUT WITH a large "trestle block" (for lack of a better description; Collings' description of the bracing on the 470JL falls in-between the design elements of a center block and Gretsch trestle braces.)

    Just don't confuse your opinion with objective truth ("similar" is in the eye of the beholder). You'll note I have said if you want the real thing, you gotta' pay. But that's not why the OP started this thread.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    haha not p*ssed, it just rubs me the wrong way when someone presents themselves as the "master of truth". The Collings in indeed unique. Is it indeed hollow... BUT WITH a large "trestle block" (for lack of a better description; Collings' description of the bracing on the 470JL falls in-between the design elements of a center block and Gretsch trestle braces.)

    Just don't confuse your opinion with objective truth ("similar" is in the eye of the beholder). You'll note I have said if you want the real thing, you gotta' pay. But that's not why the OP started this thread.
    Those are all your terms, not mine. Please just ignore me, it's getting more and more ridiculous, seriously

  26. #25

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    Cool down, gentlemen.

    FWIW there is a Collings 470 available in GB: Collings 470JL Antiqued Blonde | Reverb