Collings 470 JL Alternatives

[guavajelly]

I was curious and found out how the adjustment mechanism of the dynasonics looks like:

And also about "trestle bracing":
GretschTech: Trestle Bracing – Gretsch Guitars Blog

[Woody Sound]

What is your price limit? You could try swapping in the right pickups on a different guitar. Something along the lines of a les paul special or epi. The epi would be a cheap way to try it.

Epiphone Les Paul Special Electric Guitar | zZounds

[Woody Sound]

Keep in mind that JL has played/plays many guitars. What will be next?

Julian Lage - Google Search

[ruger9]

Keep in mind that JL has played/plays many guitars. What will be next?

Julian Lage - Google Search

Interestingly, he just put a P90 in the neck of his Danocaster, for taking overseas. Because he can unbolt the neck of the tele so he doesn't have to put it in checked baggage.

[Eck]

Gibson Blueshawk, used of course. Not too popular so pretty affordable.

I recently found the sounds of the Blueshawk that Gibson put on their website demoing the varitone and ‘blues’ p90s. It’s got a 25.5 neck, it’s insanely comfortable and in real life good looking, in contrast to its photos.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eck]

What is your price limit? You could try swapping in the right pickups on a different guitar. Something along the lines of a les paul special or epi. The epi would be a cheap way to try it.

Epiphone Les Paul Special Electric Guitar | zZounds

I’ve got the Gibson mid 2000s in red. It’s a pocket rocket. But cannot hold a candle to the Blueshawk, starting with the pickups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[whiskey02]

Here's something to argue about: I think Julian is the greatest player to come along since Metheny. As much as I respect him and his need to earn a living, I find his amazing talents largely wasted with the americana schtick he's currently playing.
Love's not the only thing that hurts!

[Stefan Eff]

Here's something to argue about: I think Julian is the greatest player to come along since Metheny. As much as I respect him and his need to earn a living, I find his amazing talents largely wasted with the americana schtick he's currently playing.
Love's not the only thing that hurts!

I think it's mostly his musical variety and his different guitar tone that sets him apart from classical Jazzguitarists. I love he‘s that open minded and that‘s a sign of his amazing talent-not to reduce himself to something we call „Jazz“. So to me the opposite is true: He would waste his talent largely if he got stuck in jazz.

A song like „Etude“ shows in 2-3 minutes what he‘s able to. Only he dares such a ride thru different styles. Out of this world.

[ruger9]

I think it's mostly his musical variety and his different guitar tone that sets him apart from classical Jazzguitarists. I love he‘s that open minded and that‘s a sign of his amazing talent-not to reduce himself to something we call „Jazz“. So to me the opposite is true: He would waste his talent largely if he got stuck in jazz.

A song like „Etude“ shows in 2-3 minutes what he‘s able to. Only he dares such a ride thru different styles. Out of this world.

Couldn't agree more. And I also do think his tone is somewhat unique, especially with that new Collings. His difference is what drew me to him. Otherwise, I'd just keep listening to Burrell, Smith, etc...

[sully75]

I'm of the somewhat unpopular opinion that 89% of a guitar's tone is the pickups, 5% the setup and the other 6% is also the pickups. But 90% of a player's tone is in their fingers and 10% the guitar. I think those JL guitars are just stunning and I want to make a copy at some point but if you listen to him regularly he always sounds like himself. I would not expend a lot of money you don't have trying to get that guitar or a ton of energy trying to copy it.

That said...get a cheap guitar and put in the best similar pickups you can find and you will probably be happy.

I don't necessarily worship at his altar but he's clearly one of the greatest living guitar players.

There's some french guys that I think are on par...Antoine Boyer and Sebastian Giniaux...both have that improvisatory genius and technical mastery.

[Stefan Eff]

I'm of the somewhat unpopular opinion that 89% of a guitar's tone is the pickups, 5% the setup and the other 6% is also the pickups. But 90% of a player's tone is in their fingers and 10% the guitar. I think those JL guitars are just stunning and I want to make a copy at some point but if you listen to him regularly he always sounds like himself. I would not expend a lot of money you don't have trying to get that guitar or a ton of energy trying to copy it.

That said...get a cheap guitar and put in the best similar pickups you can find and you will probably be happy.

I don't necessarily worship at his altar but he's clearly one of the greatest living guitar players.

There's some french guys that I think are on par...Antoine Boyer and Sebastian Giniaux...both have that improvisatory genius and technical mastery.

Julian Lage sounds even with the cheapest Squier like himself for sure.
But tonewise I couldn’t disagree more. A good guitar sounds even unplugged great and a good pickup amplifies this tone as best as possible. There are so many parameters involved. For example: A Telecaster with a light and resonant body sounds perfect with a fat neck but can sound shrill with a thin neck. Or the differences between saddle metals and bridge thickness…

No, you won‘t get the real thing by swapping pickups only. Nope.

But I agree totally with you concerning Sebastian Giniaux:

Wonderful!

[sully75]

Julian Lage sounds even with the cheapest Squier like himself for sure.
But tonewise I couldn’t disagree more. A good guitar sounds even unplugged great and a good pickup amplifies this tone as best as possible. There are so many parameters involved. For example: A Telecaster with a light and resonant body sounds perfect with a fat neck but can sound shrill with a thin neck. Or the differences between saddle metals and bridge thickness…

No, you won‘t get the real thing by swapping pickups only. Nope.

But I agree totally with you concerning Sebastian Giniaux:

Wonderful!

Take this as a test:
Make 5 each of telecasters made by good makers with the differences you describe (say 4 distinct variations), 20 guitars, put the same consistently made pickups in all of them and then have the same player play them blindfolded. I'd bet $200 that you, me or any expert could not tell the difference between them blindfolded. The player likely could perceive differences in weight and feel but I think it's very unlikely that someone is going to be able to pick out the differences just by hearing them "oh yeah that's a brass saddle". I could be wrong but I don't see it.

If the 'real thing' is a guitar that sounds good, swapping out pickups is likely to make a guitar sound really good.

I don't think this is the last word but he's not the only person talking about this kind of stuff:

But if you want to sound like Julian Lage, spending money on lessons is going to pay off way more than buying the sort of guitar he plays.

For the record I'm not saying guitars don't sound different or that great guitars don't sound better but I don't think blinded you're going to hear as much difference as you're expecting based on the wood or the bridge.

Acoustics are obviously a different story. But even then...10 different acoustic guitars played through the same pickup are going to sound a lot more alike than 10 acoustic guitars played acoustically.

[Stefan Eff]

Take this as a test:
Make 5 each of telecasters made by good makers with the differences you describe (say 4 distinct variations), 20 guitars, put the same consistently made pickups in all of them and then have the same player play them blindfolded. I'd bet $200 that you, me or any expert could not tell the difference between them blindfolded. The player likely could perceive differences in weight and feel but I think it's very unlikely that someone is going to be able to pick out the differences just by hearing them "oh yeah that's a brass saddle". I could be wrong but I don't see it.

If the 'real thing' is a guitar that sounds good, swapping out pickups is likely to make a guitar sound really good.

I don't think this is the last word but he's not the only person talking about this kind of stuff:

But if you want to sound like Julian Lage, spending money on lessons is going to pay off way more than buying the sort of guitar he plays.

For the record I'm not saying guitars don't sound different or that great guitars don't sound better but I don't think blinded you're going to hear as much difference as you're expecting based on the wood or the bridge.

Acoustics are obviously a different story. But even then...10 different acoustic guitars played through the same pickup are going to sound a lot more alike than 10 acoustic guitars played acoustically.

I think a guitar has to appeal to all the senses. Anyway, this discussion will never end ;-)
And no one sounds like Julian Lage, not even with a pair of Ellisonics for 850$

I built my own guitars and so I’ve found my piece of mind

[ruger9]

I agree and disagree, to some degree, with both of you.

In similar guitars: ash teles, mahogany les pauls, maple Gretsches... when you change pickups, THAT WILL the the biggest difference in tone. But you can't cross bodies; that makes the experiment null and void.

PAFs in a maple-capped mahogany PRS do NOT sound like PAFs in a Gibson 335. The guitar plays a major role, when crossing body styles. Take 5 different 335s, and put the same pickups in all of them, and they will sound very close to one another.

*** NOTE:
I am not talking about the subtleties in tone and feel that many people, especially pros, talk about. They exist. And when you are a studio pro or professional musician, that stuff can matter to your inspiration/creation, which is everything. I quit worrying about that "extra 5%" years ago. Some of my guitars have it, some don't. But they are all at least 95%, and that's fine with me.

But these subtleties that are argued about on forums (HAHAHA), are just that: subtleties. They are precisely why SOME people are willing to pay $6K for a Collings or $50K for a vintage 335. But that's not most players.

And, I would argue... not ALL the 470JLs "have it", OR... that they ALL do, for someone. This stuff is all highly subjective.

[ruger9]

You know you now have to post the WHOLE thing, right?

[sully75]

I agree and disagree, to some degree, with both of you.

In similar guitars: ash teles, mahogany les pauls, maple Gretsches... when you change pickups, THAT WILL the the biggest difference in tone. But you can't cross bodies; that makes the experiment null and void.

PAFs in a maple-capped mahogany PRS do NOT sound like PAFs in a Gibson 335. The guitar plays a major role, when crossing body styles. Take 5 different 335s, and put the same pickups in all of them, and they will sound very close to one another.

*** NOTE:
I am not talking about the subtleties in tone and feel that many people, especially pros, talk about. They exist. And when you are a studio pro or professional musician, that stuff can matter to your inspiration/creation, which is everything. I quit worrying about that "extra 5%" years ago. Some of my guitars have it, some don't. But they are all at least 95%, and that's fine with me.

But these subtleties that are argued about on forums (HAHAHA), are just that: subtleties. They are precisely why SOME people are willing to pay $6K for a Collings or $50K for a vintage 335. But that's not most players.

And, I would argue... not ALL the 470JLs "have it", OR... that they ALL do, for someone. This stuff is all highly subjective.

Just pointing out that in the video I linked to the guy compared a tele body to a guitar with no body whatsoever and the difference between them was not quantifiable.

I got converted to loving Humbuckers on an Epiphone ES 339 which is a lovely and fun guitar but ended up building a mongrel strat and put Duncan Jazz JBs in it and it's equally killer. I imagine there is some unquantifiable difference between what the Gibson body is doing and what the strat body is doing but I don't think it's super significant. There's no way of knowing though because it's not like you can put a blindfold on and pick up one or the other and not know which it is.

I think you buy a Collings because you have some extra cash around and you like really well made guitars. The setup and workmanship is likely to be top notch. The pickups are unobtanium. JL is not likely to put his name on a crappy guitar. All of those things are cool. But I think if you put those pickups on another electric guitar it's probably going to sound quite similar. It might not feel similar (and the ES-339 is probably going to give different physical feedback from the strat).

I do think these people who say a rosewood board has some really specific difference in sound from a maple board are kinda nutty. Come on. Put a blindfold on and tell me the difference. I'll put that challenge out to pros too. If you're playing a bunch of old teles and you start ascribing sound characteristics to different fingerboards but you're not mentioning that the pickups were all wound by different people in different decades to different (or no) specs I think you're missing the point. How are the little maple vibrations getting through the frets and down the strings and into the pickups in a different way than the little rosewood vibrations? I'm going with no. Maybe .1%

That Bigsby Tele looks very sweet btw.

[sully75]

For the record though I'm talking only about sound. I think feel is different. Yes I think an ES-339 and a fender are likely to give you a different feel. Although good versions of both will probably feel pretty good and more similar than a good version and a bad version of one or the other. But the physical feedback of a guitar is going to be variable between different electric guitars. I don't think they will sound super different with the same pickups and I think that's born out from people who have experimented with this.

I would take one of those JL guitars in a second though. Masterfully executed, so beautiful.

[Hammertone]

Hey guys, I'm in the market for a new solid body electric.
I've been a die hard Julian Lage fan for as long as I can remember and really dig the tone he gets from his new 470 JL. Unfortunately I don't have the cash to dish out what's effectively 10 000 Canadian dollars.
Does anybody have any recommendations for guitars that may be remotely similar in the 1000-2500$ price range? I'm really digging the Dynasonics but am struggling to find something that has them in this price range.
For the time being I'm seriously eyeing a G5230T Electromatic Jet (Gretsch Guitars G5230T Electromatic Jet FT Single-Cut With Bigsby, Black Walnut Fingerboard - Black | Long & McQuade) seeing as how it appears to be remotely close to the Duo Jet he played in his Love Hurts era.
I could hypothetically replace the filtertrons with T Armonds, but I'm not super experienced when it comes to guitar tinkering.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Hi Radiant. Where are you in the Great White North? I'd be happy to put together a lovely electric guitar in your price range, with some Dynasonic-type pickups. Here are pix of two of my favourite personal guitars, below.

Collings and Nacho are modern builders who actually satisfied the “close enough” criterion for me. ... Collings and Nacho are extremely talented at reproducing the feeling and sound of these guitars, one of them doing so very literally and the other with more interpretive liberty.

Small point, but Nacho doesn't build anything. He does what I and many others do - assemble and customize parts from vendors like Musikraft, Mark Jenny, Warmoth, Guitar Mill and so forth. [ed: I stand corrected. As pointed out below, he does fabricate some metal parts, no doubt because no one else makes ones as vintage accurate as he wants. I was under the impression that he does not fabricate the bodies and neck, but buys them (from Musikraft, IIRC, made to his specifications, and spends a lot of time relicing them. If he's headed in the direction of making bodies and necks as well, good on him!]

[sully75]

Hi Radiant. Where are you in the Great White North? I'd be happy to put together a lovely electric guitar in your price range, with some Dynasonic-type pickups. Here are pix of two of my favourite personal guitars, below.

Small point, but Nacho doesn't build anything. He does what I and many others do - assemble and customize parts from vendors like Musikraft, Mark Jenny, Warmoth, Guitar Mill and so forth.

I have not heard that about Nacho. Do you have a reference for that?

[Endaro]

I have not heard that about Nacho. Do you have a reference for that?

At least according to their website, it's not accurate:

A great deal of our hardware parts is machined in house. We produce our own string trees, jack cups, different versions of knobs, string ferrules. We also stamp our own bridge plates. We age our metal parts carefully in order to not compromise functionality.

I don't see specific language about necks and bodies, but that's already quite a bit more than your average assembler.

[sully75]

Yeah it does not seem likely. Afaik they are pretty fanatical about recreating finishes etc. Cutting bodies and necks is probably the easiest part of the process. I would imagine they want to sort through wood too.

Could be wrong tho I usually am.

[Stefan Eff]

I have not heard that about Nacho. Do you have a reference for that?

I‘ve heard that too and it gives a doubtful feeling (Necks made by Musikraft). Don‘t get me wrong, Musikraft necks are superb. But:
6k for a Partscaster (here in Europe)?

I also always wondered why Nacho is allowed to use the original Fender headstock. There is no „licensed by Fender“ sticker or something on his guitars. They are artistic aged (if you like relics), no question, but those fantasy dates and signatures in his guitars are,hm, childish to me.
Even the pickups are no name, Ron Ellis aren‘t installed anymore if I‘m right. So yes, I guess they’re Partscasters. Anyway, Julian loves his Nacho obviously.

[Stefan Eff]

You know you now have to post the WHOLE thing, right?

Oh yes, sure:


This is a swampash Thinline with maple top, angled neckpocket (to avoid a shim), Bigsby B-16, Barfuss Pickups. Truarc Serpentune Bridge.

The neck is a AAAAA-flamed roasted maple fat neck (maple cap).
My favourite guitar. Handmade.
Sounds like a dream, plays like butter.

*and this guitar is truly no Alternative to the Collings 470JL (even if the special wound neck pickup sounds somewhat similar, it‘s a fat one with >10.000 windings and old Jazzbass magnets), so sorry for being completely o.t. Anyway:
It‘s really a magic pickup and everything but a regular Telecaster type ;-)

[Bluedawg]

I toured the Collings factory a few years ago.

The do indeed have a little mix of pixie dust they sprinkle on their guitars just before they go into the spray booth.

I think one of the main ingredients is a local BBQ seasoning from one of the Austin BBQ brisket joints.

[Bluedawg]

Danocaster is a well-respected "partscaster" builder.

Danocaster

Wherever he is getting his bodies and necks from doesn't seem to bother anyone.

He's selling everything he builds as far as I can tell, and the used ones for sale are asking more than he charges on his website.


Maybe Nacho is doing the same magic with outsourced bodies and necks. I guess they are in Europe since I see Euros mentioned on the restocking fee.



I do get a tickle out of this at the Nacho website:

"Only members of the Nachoguitar club receive our product offerings."

Not sure I want to join a club that would take me as a member.