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For point 3: recording and/or amping at home or playing out? Jonathan Stout advocates the use of a lapel microphone fixed to the tailpiece (or the strings between tailpiece and saddle) and pointed just to a spot left of the treble f-hole and behind the saddle. I use a large-diaphragm condensor mic pointed at that same location from maybe 30cm away and that indeed works better than the standard aiming point just north of the neck joint. It goes without saying that this will also sound more natural than the average piezo pickup system.
Originally Posted by jim232777
Search the forum; there are a few different price point at which you can find such lapel mics with the necessary mounting supports.
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07-24-2022 11:15 AM
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i know Jonathan is swing guitar royalty and his word rightly carries a lot of weight, but from probably a couple of thousand gigs of playing swing music on acoustic guitars - and while it clearly works for him I would NOT recommend Jonathan’s solution for anything other than gigs where there’s a PA system with competent sound engineer and plenty of time to sound check the guitar. Reading between the lines a little I think this probably is probably the case for the type of gigs Jonathan plays - for example the sound guys at continental European swing dance festivals like Lindy Shock, Haarlem and so on tend to be really good in my experience.
I would also say using a mic on the guitar can lack a bit of ‘cut’ and ‘centre’ in the mix but that’s a personal taste thing maybe
Playing in bars and so on, feedback city, and even on some nicer gigs such as jazz festivals and so on you can’t expect long to sound check the guitar; it’s often pretty perfunctory actually and bandleaders can be very intolerant of sound issues like feedback. In fact I was asked in one band not to use a lapel mic any more because there were too many issues with feedback. I’ve also played in a lot of BAD rooms.
So a mic is nice where you can use it but it’s necessary to have a fall back for most of us. I think the Krivo is the best plug and play solution I’ve found so far - and I’ve tried almost everything on gigs over the years - boom condenser mic, boom dynamic mic, lapel mic, contact mic, soundboard piezo, under saddle piezo, piezo with an IR, various magnetic pups, no amplification at all, just playing an ES175 - you name it….
The Krivo/Baggs solution sounds good and I plugged it in and it was good to go right away.
Notice that Matt Munisteri does not use this approach when playing at the Ear Inn for example, he plays a guitar with a mag pickup (and sounds incredible) rather than his old L5…Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-24-2022 at 01:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by chipschap
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In my opinion, your best deal would be to find a good Gibson made 1930s archtop sold under one of the other brand names (Cromwell, Kalamazoo, Henry L Mason, Recording King, etc.). A really nice one of those can often be had for half the price of an L-50, and can be an amazing guitar.
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That is always a great plan. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
However, old guitars can take a lot of expensive work to get up and running. I have played a number of old guitars and many of them have been priced where the work they take (for example: re-fretting) makes them in no way a good deal. Some of them have had serious problems, that would cost a huge amount of money.
Usually if a guitar is super clean, it is priced even higher.
It possible to find a guitar with a non-structural and non-playing problems that will allow for the price to be decent. )For example, I was able to buy a LP with a excellently repaired neck break for a good price, and it is the most solid LP I own).
I personally love buying used guitars, I also try and find ones that do not fall into the vintage area. I find with buying used guitars is that they are more likely to need re-frets or other “I have been used a lot type of problems”.
I tend to try and value them with that in mind. Sometimes I end up paying more then I should. Sometimes I get really lucky.
I have passed up a number of guitars that I should of bought. That is the problem: how do you really know what a good price is. Right now archtops seem to be more expensive then ever. Is it a balloon? Is it going to get even more expensive? How can anyone really tell?
I have guitars that have closed to double in what I paid. Does not even matter because why would I sell them. I would have to replace them anyway.
That is my answer: buy what you want, at a price you feel ok-ish about, and then play it until the end. (However, I only buy guitars that fall into a certain range, a little above professional working, and typically below top of the line).Last edited by st.bede; 07-26-2022 at 05:11 PM.
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I really liked this plugged into my Princeton Reverb reissue TWJP E – Tanglewood Guitars
Smaller body flat tops built with warmer woods like mahogany and rosewood with a decent pickup are great at this. The neck profiles tend to be a bit different on these, but it is a personal preference.
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There is a theory that old guitars with worn frets and other signs of long hard playing are more likely to be a great guitar. If they're dogs, people tend to sell them off or leave them in the case, and the good ones get played. I don't think this is true in absolutely every case, but it seems plausible as a general rule of thumb. Closet and case queens may look very nice, but why were they never played? Investigation is probably in order.
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Interesting! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
A few years ago I started hearing about Loar, and it seemed they were either fabulous or QC nightmares. Wouldn't have bought one without playing. Has that improved?
Clips on Krivo website are mixed--some sound very acoustic, while others are more of a smooth electric. Comments? Does it come down to what is after in the chain?
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Yes, guitars are VERY expensive now. Who knows what the future will hold but I don’t believe they’ll be going down in price, because quality archtop’s are only being made in few numbers. Even Eastman is limiting its archtop’s. They’re currently going after the CW crowd with their double humbucker archtop’s. Now, look at the number of archtop’s with floater’s they produce. Only a few 910’s which are approaching $4k which is nuts!!
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I discovered the potential of this through a whim. I was recording my kingpin using a 2 channel audio interface, and suddenly wondered what the lapel mic would sound like. I had no way to hold it so actually dropped it into the f-hole. I played a little using that and put the neck P90 through the other channel. Played back, with the 2 channels panned a little left and right, it was quite good! A quality mic properly mounted should be great. Originally Posted by RJVB
Ha! No worries there. Vast majority of my playing is at home. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Valid point, though.
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Tbh if I knew then what I know now, I probably would have just got a Godin 5th avenue and a Krivo pickup. The Godins are quiet compared to a flat top even but the acoustic sound is more than enough for home practice and anything outside of the home you are going to need amplification 90% of the time anyway - the acoustic tone of the instrument becomes academic very fast as soon as you have anyone talking in the room (or any drummer who uses anything resembling a modern kit.) The truth is even if the Loar is three times as loud as the Godin, it doesn’t really matter in the real world.
I bet the Godin mics well as well.
As a working player one can chuck it in checked luggage when touring and if it gets damaged you can replace quickly and easily.
but if you are playing at home only - the Godin is still a pretty good solution.
My experience is that most of the budget vintage Archie’s I’ve tried - l50s and so on, are acoustically quite quiet too. But they are nice things.
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Interestingly I also looked at archtops and The Loar in particular a few years back when I was researching my 2nd guitar, intended to be a steel string. For some reason I got convinced they weren't for me (I must not have found Rob MacKillop's recordings, or Steve Zook's raving videos about the Loars he sold), or I didn't look at used instruments so ultimately I bought a mini-jumbo early 2019. I regret that now as I'm pretty much convinced my LH650 is more versatile than the jumbo (and it's not even set up perfectly yet). Originally Posted by jim232777
I have not heard anything about improved QC in the current production Loars when I did my researching last fall. Of course I was looking for a model that's no longer in production. I'd wager that buying an LH600 or LH700 from a reputable/serious vendor should be safe in that they should reject samples that have true issues like a wrong neck angle. I did read something the other day that the LH700 has a bit better QC, which I had already presumed myself (using nicer materials is a stimulus to do better work).
This (all other things being as equal as possible). What else could it be...?Clips on Krivo website are mixed--some sound very acoustic, while others are more of a smooth electric. Comments? Does it come down to what is after in the chain?
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I ended up buying the acoustic 5th Ave from craigslist. I put a fresh set of medium bronze acoustic strings on it, and it already has a rosewood bridge (my Kingpin has DA chromes and a TUSQ bridge). The tone acoustically is much more what I'm looking for than the Kingpin. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Interestingly, I spent a couple of evenings this week reading at "acousticguitarforum"--saw a few familiar names -- and learned more about the Godin series. Sounds like the 5th Ave was designed to have a bit more bass than a typical vintage archtop, and I actually like that.
The purchase has the (now discontinued) K&K Pure Archtop in it, which sounds quite good IMO. It's recommended but not a must with the K&K to use a pre-amp, which I don't currently have, so I tried a 7 band eq pedal, which was really awesome. I can either leave the eq pretty flat and get a sound much like the true acoustic tone. I can also scoop the eq, and it comes out the amp sounding a lot like a flat top, so pretty versatile combination. I would love to try it with the Para DI. For lots of options, the K&K also picks up percussive sounds. With limited playing out I'm not currently worried about feedback.
Later, I think I'll look at a floating bucker. This is cool for now, though, while I keep my eyes open for a solid-wood guitar I can actually put my hands on and try.
Thanks to all the mentions of vintage options, from the L50, to Gibson-made store brands (some of which I had heard of, some not!), and comments on Harmony/Kay/Silvertone/etc. I now have time to shop around. I feel the Kingpin going up for sale in the near future.
Last edited by jim232777; 07-30-2022 at 12:30 PM. Reason: missing info...
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Well, I haven't traveled to or played a big national/international swing dance event since the start of the pandemic, I've been playing around LA way more, and most of that is just plugging into my own AER. I'm playing a pretty loud trad jazz gig in a bar every Wednesday (like, "I HAVE to wear earplugs" LOUD), and my setup has been working great... so I'm still not sure what you're doing wrong with trying it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
https://www.facebook.com/10000302762...26141985014083
I mean, seriously, I've been doing a weekly theme park gig, and there's a literal locomotive engine that is wailing and hissing as it idles across the plaza - and it's LOUD. We have to play loud enough that I wear earplugs, and I've never had any issues with feed back and I can hear myself great.
The key is to keep the monitor (whether an amp or a floor wedge) from reflecting off the top into the mic, or from resonating the guitar body itself. I put the floor wedge on my left side and it's a non-issue. At the bar gig, I put the AER on a barstool behind me, so it's blasting out from over my left shoulder. It works great.
And as far as "long soundcheck"? What few soundchecks we get are not luxurious affairs - the DPA is use pretty much doesn't need EQ, and I just have them put enough in the wedge to my left so I can hear it fine, but there's still tons of headroom before feedback.
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Thanks for the response. Sorry if I mischaracterised your playing life, I was struggling to understand why our experiences were so different (I think I’ve actually been quite scarred by it lol, there’s a lot of anger there.) life’s rich tapestry etc. Originally Posted by campusfive
But in the interest of my not just digging in, it’s probably worth saying now that I have no experience using DPAs on gigs so I can’t speak to that. I am taking about lav mics.
What I can say much EVERY pro session string player I know seems to use a DPA for amplified live work. On guitar they are not quite so common, not sure why.
I was using a Pro 70, btw, which is a common and popular choice for Gypsy jazz players, if that has any bearing on it. Obviously it works for many great Gj players.
I understand DPAs are superior in every way and seem to have much better feedback rejection, which one might expect from something specifically designed to do the job (lav mics are obviously not) and also much more expensive.
In the end I’ve drifted away from trying to get an authentic acoustic guitar stage sound. Too many variables are out of my hands. It’s bad enough with a Gibson into a Fender lol. The Krivo/Baggs solution is surprisingly good though for functions and so on.
For home playing it’s not so terribly important.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-02-2022 at 04:24 AM.
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I thought Thomann sell a DPA alternative that is supposed to be surprisingly good for its price?
I've been reading rave things (and hearing very nice sounding recordings) about the Fishman Powertap (Earth) system. Probably impossible to install that into an archtop (but who knows ...).
Re: gypsy jazz: a week ago I heard one of my favourite local'ish bands at the MortyJazz festival. The 2 grande-bouche guitars had a lav-style mic fixed to the back inside the soundhole, were routed through a tiny K&K preamp (?) into small amps. The place was noisy (and they were playing under tent because of rain) but I noticed nothing off. Probably not feasible to install such a system into an f-hole archtop either?
LeviathanGypsyBand.mp3
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OK, I give up I'm just shit haha. For anyone without my clearly apparently mammoth incompetence the lav mic solution should be fine. Or maybe my memories were implanted by Krivo as a marketing ploy? Originally Posted by RJVB
Right, I'm moving on and displacing my rage and my own grande bouche. Time to harrang someone on a music theory thread instead.
In seriousness it was always easier to fit the lav to the GJ guitar than an archtop, but it's possible. Also GJ players don't generally have to contend with drums; playing with an acoustic quartet was never a problem. Remember - I said that the lav did usually work, and when it did it sounded better than a pickup could, it was just not a consistently practical solution for me.
If I was going to buy an instrument mic I'd just get the DPA, if I've learned one thing about gear as a 'professional', it's don't mess around, get the industry standard. But I'd want to hear recommendations from guitarists on my local circuit first, it's also usually best not to be an early adopter.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-02-2022 at 07:10 AM.
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I've lusted after the 805 for a long time for some of my big band work, but the price puts me off for such a "niche" guitar. I almost pulled the trigger on a used one on Reverb, but someone beat me to it. Originally Posted by spiro2903
Hi,
- Eastman AR805 AR810
2500-3k€
There is also AR610 but that is 2k€ and no pickup. I could add the pickup later on, but 2k€ is still out of my budget.
- Stromberg
Someone mentioned these guitars, but I don't know anything about them. Price, dealers, models...
I think maybe DjangoBooks and SoundPure discount them a bit. Fits your wants perfectly, nice wide but slender neck, carved top. Great acoustic tone. Too bad about the price. If you can find a used 610, they usually go for around $1500.
AR805 - Eastman Guitars
AR610 - Eastman Guitars
I've heard that the Strombergs sound like poop acoustically, but I don't know first-hand.
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Sorry, not today. There are 2 610’s on Reverb. Each is $2k. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
However, I just purchased mine from SP for $1500, because I drive a hard bargain. But when the guitar arrived, I was surprised that there wasn’t a single blemish or smudge on it. Clean living?
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One problem I have with this forum is there a people who pass judgments on guitars without having owned them. A guitar is like a woman. You’ve got live with her to get to truly know her. My .02
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Hi all. Just wanted to let you know that I got my Loar LH600
It is a beautiful guitar, both visually and sonic(ally?).
It is very loud. More than I expected. On par with some affordable flat top acoustics. And the neck is not that thick. It has a pronounced V shape. I wouldn't mind it being even thicker, if it was more of a D shape. But it's not bad, just a bit awkward when having the thumb on the back of the neck.
It arrived with a small chip on the neck. But the part of the neck above the top, at the end of the neck. I don't think it's anything major, and it has been lacquered which means it is probably that way from the factory. I guess that's why it came in 800€ with shipping. So I consider that a good deal. In the future I might get a floating pickup, but for now I am happy with the acoustic sound.
One thing though, the guitar came strung with acoustic strings, looks like phosphor bronze. I was thinking of trying flatwounds. What change in sound might I expect? It's not something I need to do, but just thought to try as I have never played flatwounds. Also what brand might be good? I suppose this might be another topic, but in general what strings would be recommended on an archtop? Is there a thread about this on this forum?
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Ah the old flatwounds on acoustic archtops debate. Originally Posted by spiro2903
Hi all. Just wanted to let you know that I got my Loar LH600 It is a beautiful guitar, both visually and sonic(ally?).
It is very loud. More than I expected. On par with some affordable flat top acoustics. And the neck is not that thick. It has a pronounced V shape. I wouldn't mind it being even thicker, if it was more of a D shape. But it's not bad, just a bit awkward when having the thumb on the back of the neck.
It arrived with a small chip on the neck. But the part of the neck above the top, at the end of the neck. I don't think it's anything major, and it has been lacquered which means it is probably that way from the factory. I guess that's why it came in 800€ with shipping. So I consider that a good deal. In the future I might get a floating pickup, but for now I am happy with the acoustic sound.
One thing though, the guitar came strung with acoustic strings, looks like phosphor bronze. I was thinking of trying flatwounds. What change in sound might I expect? It's not something I need to do, but just thought to try as I have never played flatwounds. Also what brand might be good? I suppose this might be another topic, but in general what strings would be recommended on an archtop? Is there a thread about this on this forum?
They tend to make the guitar sound quieter. Some like them.
I would recommend standard acoustic strings, roundwounds, maybe a 12 or 13 set. PBs tend to be a bit bright. 80/20 bronzes and Daddario nickel bronzes work well. This is what it sounds like with nickel bronzes
Vintage aficionados like Monel strings. Martin do a set called ‘Retro’
Ime Monel strings edge things a little more towards the mid range not unlike flatwounds but without the reduction in acoustic volume.
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I'm testing a lot of strings for my flat top guitar (Eastman E10 OM TC).
I tried phosphore bronze and 80/20.
It seems the consensus is that 80/20 are brighter and focus more on the fundamentals. I find that the phosphore bronze are warmer with less overtones than the 80/20. Which is a bit misleading since 80/20 are said to have less overtones, I found the contrary.
My guitar has an Adirondack top that are known to be quite bright and powerful.
So it really depends on the guitar.
I would go for Phosphore Bronze on the LH600, it should sound warmer than 80/20 and therefore more "jazzy".
I once tried Retro Monels but didn't like them. I found that they deadend the complexity inherent to flattop guitars.
I tried them on a Es335 style guitar and found they killed all the trebles, and not in a way flatwounds do. Flatwounds (daddario Chromes in my case) keep a certain clarity to the sound, while the Monels didn't.
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can you have a string be brighter and also have more fundamental, since it’s the upper overtones that gives a sound the brightness and detail? Originally Posted by Jx30510
I suppose you can have a lot of fundamental (bass) and also high harmonics which would make the guitar sound more mid scooped? That the sound I associate with modern acoustic strings like PB’s. This can sound nicer solo.
Monels in contrast seem much more mid rangey and probably could be heard as muddy if you are used to the articulate highs of brighter strings; otoh Tony Rice regarded it as a more honest sound.
I find nickel bronzes a nice balance. That said I don’t feel you are ever going to get the detail out of the Loar that you might get out of a modern style archtop. Otoh you aren’t going to get the sheer brassy projection out of the latter. Apples and oranges.
In terms of how much brightness and detail you want in your archtop tone is probably dependent on what kind of playing you are doing; the needs of a band rhythm player are different to a solo chord melody player. The thing I found I didn’t like about PB’s was their inconsistency.
Flats would give you more fundamental which would make them seem quieter. Otoh brand new PB’s make everything seem louder. Iirc a JGO member checked with a decibel meter and there’s less difference between acoustic roundwounds and flatwounds than you’d think. Psychoacoustics.
It’s effectively an EQ. Which is also why archtops can seem quieter than flattops. Flattops have a scooped EQ which sounds louder solo, while old school acoustic archtops are designed to maximise midrange cut (around 800hz) correct me if I’m wrong. A scooped sound can get lost in an ensemble.
I’m not surprised re the Monels. I wouldn’t use Monels on an electric unless I was going for a period Charlie Christian tone. I would also imagine you would run into problems with balance between strings. IIRC Monels are what was available in the late 30s and 40s, so vintage specialists use those with the appropriate pickups etc.
Monels are acoustic strings really.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-22-2022 at 06:04 AM.
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You have an acoustic guitar, so acoustic strings are ... advisable Originally Posted by spiro2903
Seriously, I'd keep them on for the time being and maybe experiment with brass for a bit more vintage-correct sound. Your guitar needs to be broken in and its sound will develop. It seems logical to assume that it will develop according to the sound spectrum you can get with the strings you use.
FWIW, Cleartone make a set that has the 3 common wrap wires; PB, brass and copper, supposedly to get the best balanced acoustic sound. I find their choice a bit surprising but maybe you'll like them.
And congrats with the new baby ... and for getting along with the neck profile! Sounds like you won't be considering to shave it down to a more modern shape (or maybe just to a bit more D or U like shape)!
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