-
Still smitten with my Eastman 7 string. There is however, a strange sonic occurrence with certain notes played on the low A string, i.e. the notes seem to have a modulation, that at times sound just enough out of tune to make me not want to play that low note. Sometimes the note just sounds sour.
The intonation is set correctly, but I’ve noticed that the pitch of all of the chromatics on the low A string aren’t dead center. Some are a couple cents sharp and some flat by a couple of cents. The notes on the other strings are all dead on.
The guitar is strung with 12-52 Chromes with a .072 round wound for the low A.
Any ideas?
-
06-29-2022 11:56 PM
-
Taking in your description and measurements, I am leaning towards there being something weird about the low A string. In order for different pitches to be high on some and low on other frets, one almost thinks the string is of uneven construction along it's length.
The only other wild theory I had was odd resonances in the guitar "pulling" the pitches of different notes.
-
Try damping the strings between bridge and tailpiece so that their vibration can't interfere with the sounding string. Coupling across the bridge can be a problem on the bottom string of some 6 string guitars.
-
I play 7 string. The 7th string is just on the edge of being outside of optimum string length/frequency length, especially with a low A. That means it's very vulnerable to pitch error if the string is stretched or bent. That discrepancy will resonate with other pitch perfect strings and 1 or 2 cents off can result in wolf tones or frequency phase issues.
On just about all 7 strings I've played (and most guitars for that matter) the nut height is set above what I consider optimum, which is the height if it were a zero fret (about the height at the second fret with the first fret depressed), that's my target height on my own guitar. If the open nut string height is even slightly above that, the increased string 'bend' required to fret will ultimately put the pitch off of a properly scaled fingerboard.
I notice this 'offness' on all 7 strings (including high end instruments like Benedettos and Eastmans.) The common practice is to cut a nut higher than optimum so it will be clear for any kind of setup or player (hard strummer) but this means your low strings can suffer.
Note: With the string tension relatively looser, your technique becomes more critical. An uneven touch can effect the intonation even when the string is at zero fret so make sure your note finger pressure is uniform and a light touch goes a long way.
I cut my 7 string slot down (actually all my nuts are optimized before anything else on a new instrument) and I don't have that issue. But this is just my experience.
You'll find many great suggestions from others on this forum I'm sure.
-
I'm pretty certain that happens. (Especially) When I'm in drop-D I mute all other strings when tuning. If I don't mute at all, the 2 D strings will influence each other so the if the low D is flat, the 4th string will also get tuned flat. There must be a similar and probably stronger effect between the 2 A strings on a 7-string, plus the A reacts sympathetically with more other open strings than the D (AFAIK).
Originally Posted by j4zz
-
When I was playing an Eastman 7, I had a .080 for the low A and didn't have any of those modulation issues. I wonder if there's not enough tension on that scale with the string, and perhaps that is causing an issue? YMMV, everyone plays differently and the .080 worked for me.
-
You can get an .80 through the tuning machine hole? Share your secret!!! Please! Originally Posted by JSanta
-
I can't recall if I had to drill it out or not, but I don't believe that I did. It's been many years since I had that guitar unfortunately. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
I know that I had to widen the nut a bit to accommodate the string, but I think that was it. I was also buying DA Chromes for it, even the low A. Not sure if that made it passing through the tuning machine easier or not.
-
I consider this to be an unsolvable problem on 7-string guitars with scale lengths of 25.5" or less. Even if you can get a really heavy string through the tuner hole, it's almost certainly going to go sharp on the lower frets. The real solution is a longer scale length or fanned frets.
-
I’ve had that at times on my 810CE7 when I used RW 72s. Jimmy BN’s got one answer - the slot is not larger enough or deep enough from the factory. But the 25” scale is too short for great intonation even from a 72, yet the stock tuner has too small a hole for anything larger. I finally opened it up very carefully when I discovered that I could get 0.075” Chrome singles. I haven’t had any problems at all since the switch, and the big Chrome is a decent tonal match for the JS113s I use above it.
My Ibanez AF207 came with an oversized 7th peg, and I’ve been trying to find a few to use on my other 7s. Hoshino has ignored all of my inquiries and the dealers I’ve asked all tell me they’re not available. After discovering them for my Carvin years ago, I put a custom Sperzel with an oversized post and hole on my Tele 7 and love it. So I’m thinking of ordering a gold one for the Eastman with the closest button to the stock one. I don’t like leaving the screw hole open, but at least with the Sperzel mount the pins on the back will not leave additional visible holes.
The other factor is that a 7th tuner should have a higher ratio than the rest of the set to permit more precise tuning. The lower the desired open note, the fewer degrees of rotation are required to tune to pitch. It’s harder to tune a low A precisely with tuners made for tighter strings. Look at the GraphTech site to see their graduated ratio sets. Each string will go up one note with one full turn of the button when close to pitch. So tuning that 7 takes great care and a well sized slot.
-
The best I ever did with a normal scale length guitar was by replacing the 7 string tuner with a high ratio bass tuner. It looked weird but it was a big help. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
-
That's the idea, Jim - but I couldn't bring myself to do that to the 810. The Sperzel is close to stock size but has a larger post and an 0.85" hole as I recall. It won't stick out like that,so I'm leaning toward it. But if I could only buy the 7th tuner used on my Ibanez AF207 for each of my other 7s, life would be soooo easy! Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
David
-
Do you know of anyone who has tried one of the Ned Steinberger gearless tuners? Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
-
I have never been thrilled with the low a sound on any 7 string. No player even thrills me with the sound of their 7. Ron Eschete is the best among them. Lenny Breu was the complete master but he used a high A. I actually prefer his 6 string playing over any of his 7 stuff.
-
It's really hard to make a 7 string work. That was the motivation for our 27" scale length (in fact the motivation for even getting into the guitar building business) but like a lot 7-sting players from the late 90's/early 00's I ended up going back to 6-string because ultimately it just didn't seem to be worth the effort given the shortcomings (and down tuning seems to get me half way there anyway). I always thought that the one guy who got it right was Charlie Hunter but his method opens even bigger rabbit holes with essentially two separate instruments running off of one chassis. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
-
I don't. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
To be honest, the custom Sperzel is a great machine that I should have ordered for the Eastman long ago. I have one on my Tele 7, but they're all Sperzels so it's part of a matched set. I even have two spares, but they're all black. So I should get a gold one with the right knob on it and be done with it. I think they're about $18 in gold - the black ones cost me $12. I keep thinking that I'll find one of the extra large 7th tuners like the one on my Ibanez - it's gold. gorgeous, and great. But I suspect after years of trying that it's not to be.
-
The OPs description seemed to be saying some were sharp and some were flat, and didn't mention any pattern (like just the lower frets). Still it sounds like the low A is problematic in many ways. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
-
There are two possibilities with a 7 string with a short scale length. If the strings is too loose, the it basically oscillates so the intonation will basically be all over the place. The typical solution is to install a very heavy string to get more tension. That's the situation I was referring to when I said to will go sharp at the bottom of the fingerboard. The string is so thick and the scale length so short that when you press it down to make contact with the first few frets, the angle is so steep that it stretches the string enough to make it go sharp. Originally Posted by j4zz
-
Thanks for the replies and ideas. For more info: my nut is cut as perfect as can be. I have no sharpness on the lower notes on the low A string. I have a small business repairing these things and take pride in my setup work. The F and Ab notes are most likely to be a little flat. The G has the most warble.
I’m first going to try another string of the same gauge, and then try a .075.
Other than this little problem and getting used to the wide fretboard, I really like the fullness I can get out of the 7. The Pizzarellis, Howard Paul and a guy named Pete Smyser seem to have overcome any negatives the 7 string presents. They’re my inspiration. I won’t use the 7 for everything, but it’s found a home in my stable.
-
I switched to 7 in the early '90s and do use one for everything. I have a ratty old Epi Frankenpaul LP 7 that I use for the blues, a Tele 7 for general gigging, 16" laminated and 17" carved archtops for jazz, and a nice fat flat top 7 for a big acoustic sound. Jimmy Bruno told me when I first switched back in the early '90s that the only way to learn to play a 7 like a 7 is to sell all your 6s - so I did. I think he was right. When I play a 6 now, I have difficulty finding the sounds and lines I want. Originally Posted by Zigracer
It takes restraint to play a 7 with a bass, so I generally stay away from the 7th string when comping - but 5 and 6 also get little use in chording, so this isn't difficult. It's just fantastic for jazz, commercial dates, and any kind of solo playing or accompaniment - I just love the 7 and can't imagine going back. Here's a brief clip of my Eastman 810 CE7 with a Chrome 0.075" 7th and JS113s above it:
-
[QUOTE=nevershouldhavesoldit;1205617]I switched to 7 in the early '90s and do use one for everything. I have a ratty old Epi Frankenpaul LP 7 that I use for the blues, a Tele 7 for general gigging, 16" laminated and 17" carved archtops for jazz, and a nice fat flat top 7 for a big acoustic sound. Jimmy Bruno told me when I first switched back in the early '90s that the only way to learn to play a 7 like a 7 is to sell all your 6s - so I did. I think he was right. When I play a 6 now, I have difficulty finding the sounds and lines I want.
It takes restraint to play a 7 with a bass, so I generally stay away from the 7th string when comping - but 5 and 6 also get little use in chording, so this isn't difficult. It's just fantastic for jazz, commercial dates, and any kind of solo playing or accompaniment - I just love the 7 and can't imagine going back. Here's a brief clip of my Eastman 810 CE7 with a Chrome 0.075" 7th and JS113s above it:
[/
Absolutely beautiful,playing! Love the sound of your Eastman too. I can’t argue with your or Jimmy Bruno’s logic. For me, for now, I still need/want to play the six. I play in a rock duo and also have a pop/rock-classic tunes solo act (this is where the gig $ comes from). I rely heavily on my Gretsches with Bigsbys for these projects and really love ‘em too. The acoustic flattop fits in here as well. I have two new projects of standards/jazz. One solo and one with a bass player. The 7 seems to be my main focus there, although for certain tunes I still use a 6 string. We’ll see where this goes. That all said, I really am smitten with the 7 string.
I really appreciate tour thoughts, input and musicianship.
-
[QUOTE=Zigracer;1205672]
Thanks for the kind words! If you love the 7 and need a flat top for gigging, I highly recommend the Ibanez AEL207E. I bought one when they were released (2015?) and was absolutely blown away by the quality, sound, and feel. They only made them for a year, so I'm assuming that I was once again the only person to buy a short lived model whose qualities remained unappreciated by the masses Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I think I paid $450 for it new. It has a very nice Fishman system with the usual quack, but I've never been motivated to upgrade it because it sounds so good with the treble turned down a bit. I just mic it for low key acoustic gigs backing harmonica, flute, vocals etc. I see them on the web from time to time and would replace mine with the same model immediately if anything happened to it. It plays very well, is not worth so much that I worry about it on stage, and it truly sounds fantastic. That's a little mic in front of it in this pic. The club's photographer took this during a recent gig and he gave it to me with the stand, mic and cable in front of me. I couldn't remove it all digitally without distorting the guitar, so I left that piece of it.
-
Right we're not (yet) on Instagram here (but I clicked 'like' under your post just as if) Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
-
Thanks! Originally Posted by RJVB
Right we're not (yet) on Instagram here (but I clicked 'like' under your post just as if)
I've avoided being on Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter, Facebook etc for many years and will continue to do so. I already get enough unwanted email, messages, phone calls, and unsolicited mail offers to choke a large horse.
-
I found a Godin Multiac Nylon 7-string years ago (hard to find as they get shipped to Brazil) and a D'Addario .060 works very well: good pitch and decent balance. On an arch top or solid electric, the 7 is generally much fatter and boomier than the other low strings; I've found that the lighter the 7th you can get away with, the better the balance.
Reply With Quote
Developing an Individual Style
Yesterday, 07:54 PM in Everything Else