The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I need your help fellas,
    I bought a Gibson ES-225 TDN from 1959 yesterday. I could be happy as a lark, but noticed a few things that concern me. Maybe all is fine, but just want to rule the worst case out: According to the pics I attached: Does the top have an issue? Or the neck? I compared as many pictures on the web as I could but there are not many good pics around to compare. I find the curves on the top (neck to bridge) a bit extreme. Also, neck pickup edges are not flush on the top. And I turned the screws down almost as far as possible to lower the action. but there is not much left to go further. All this makes me feel there might be some issues. Please check the pics and throw in some wisdom. Thanks indeed!
    Attached Images Attached Images Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-d7ea1860-1462-4647-86ba-8c6424f5669d-jpg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-c6368fc9-788f-4415-b9f9-c2d736bca2e7-jpg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-f01fd869-7fb7-4bbb-a63a-743d06da2b32-jpg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-8154b797-8b42-4a48-a36f-05ba16b13713-jpg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-9fa7695a-c831-4657-ae9f-b269d182e114-jpg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-1402662a-6034-4c36-87a6-b7b1bcfc4397-jpg 

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  3. #2

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    First of all. Looks like a real nice guitar !! Congrats.
    From what I see, I would start at the neck first. String height looks to be on the high side below the 12th fret. It could have a bow or the lower end is dropping. Take a straight edge and try to adjust the truss rod until the neck is about flat or slightly hollow.
    If it indeed is a case of a sunken top, having a sound post installed by a luthier could do the job.

  4. #3

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    Hi, i would think that if the top was sunken the action would go lower instead of higher. Maybe the neck has been pulled by the strings and therefore is not straight anymore, or if this is not the case the angle which it is set into the joint is not favorable and may need to be reset. While for a player who merely uses cowboy chords in the first position area, the present condition could be okay, i believe for anyone who wants to solo in higher position it would present problems.
    Can you post pics which aim along the neck?

  5. #4

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    Nice looking guitar! The curvature of the top looks normal to me. Action a tad high, perhaps, and the pickup polepieces are IMHO higher than necessary. I would start by checking the truss rod to make sure it is working, and gently tighten it to get excess relief from the neck if needed. I do this with string tension loosened, although others do it under full tension. That bridge/tailpiece combo is a poser. It looks like it might still have some downward travel, and also be fussy to intonate, but do-able.

    Over-all, I think you have a pretty cool instrument that would be well worth the time, effort, and expense to get it into optimum playability. Good luck!

  6. #5

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    Let's hope the truss rod works.

  7. #6

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    Action looks really high to me, but pictures can be deceiving. Usually the action at the high frets is dictated by the bridge and neck set. If the bridge is all the way down that only leaves one thing. Do you find the playing acceptable?

  8. #7

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    It’s hard to know what’s what from pics. The top does look a bit more concave above the neck PU than I think it should, but I don’t know this model well. If this is correct, it would explain the high action with the bridge/TP all the way down. But if the neck has pulled up at the headstock and is now rotated inward around the joint, I’d expect loose binding or some sign of separation from the body at the heel.

    I’d start with a standard setup approach. Measure nut slot height over the board, then check relief while strung. Measure the action over the first, 7th, 12th and last frets. Take off the strings and use a straightedge to check relief unstrung. See if there’s any sign of movement or looseness in the neck joint. Check the truss rod for integrity and function. If the nut turns without excessive force and has normal resistance, see if you can adjust if for zero relief without strings and make sure it’s stable, flat and untwisted. If you can get this far, string it and play it. It may be fine or respond well to minor adjustment.

    If that doesn’t either make it right or reveal the problem, you need a luthier or someone with more experience than I have.

    I haven’t looked closely at pickups like that in years. But I doubt that it was proud of the top when it left the factory, although I could be wrong. Since the bridge PU seems to be well seated against the top, I wonder if the neck PU is a replacement from another guitar or if the top concavity in front of it is pathological and extends under it.

    It’s a cool and beautiful instrument that’s well worth making right. Getting there is half the fun, and you’ll know your instrument intimately when it’s there. Enjoy!

  9. #8

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    Action looks high from the pictures and strings seem to be a bit high over the pickup.

    But actual measurements tell more…. Pictures can be deceiving.

    Measure neck relief, string height from underside of the string to top of the 12th fret, string height from top of the polepieces to bottom of the string. Both for high and low E string. If those measurements divert a lot from standard setup default distances than you might have a problem (common setup specs as described here for example: Les Paul Guitar Setup Guide – Tonecraft.org)

    If the neck angle has shifted you should be able to see cracks in the lacker or space between heel and body. It might even move when rocked by hand.

  10. #9

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    I don't see anything there that particularly alarms me. The curvature of the top in your photographs is just the way the top is shaped. People post questions about this all the time with similar photos; it's just the Gibson top shape. The pickup cover seems to be raised off the top of the guitar which may just be the screws are a little loose or the pickup is shimmed up a little to get it closer to the strings. The action looks quite high in your photographs although I don't know if that's actually the case or a matter of camera angle. Diagnosing these things from photographs over the Internet is hit and miss; your best plan would be to find a good guitar tech locally and have them inspect the instrument.

    It would not be terribly surprising for it to need a neck reset, given that it is at a minimum 62 years old and that the neck joint is the Achilles' heel of archtop guitars. I am 62 years old and my neck needs a reset, too.

    Congratulations, it is a beautiful guitar and was quite a groundbreaking instrument for the time.

  11. #10

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    Lots of knowledgeable comments above. After reading everything, if your like me and scratching your head, just take the guitar to a trusted repair/luthier.

    Regarding the pickup covers not being flush, I’ve seen plenty of 50s guitars where the plastic is no longer (or perhaps never was) flush with the body.

    Gorgeous finish color… definitely a guitar on my “I’d love to own” list. Enjoy!

  12. #11

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    You would need to measure tha action at the 12th fret first of all. Then lay a straight edge on the neck and check for relief. If the action is ok then falling off neck and getting higher action above 14th fret is not usually a problem and no need to worry. Just looking at it is seems fine and could very well have zero wrong, or might need something to make it perfect, but that does not mean anything has to be done. If the action is fine and can be adjusted up and down, and the neck relief good then play it. The guitar has been around for 62 years. Sort of like buy an older house. They might need attention from time to time or in the future but very liveable now and they are not going to fall apart.

  13. #12

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    Also slide your iPhone into the F holes and take some pics or a video to see if the braces are loose or broken.

  14. #13

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    Happy OGD (old guitar day). AFAIK this model has a soundblock. Such guitars should be fairly resistant to top sinking. The best advises are already given above.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by teeps
    Happy OGD (old guitar day). AFAIK this model has a soundblock. Such guitars should be fairly resistant to top sinking. The best advises are already given above.
    The 225 does not have a full length block inside. From the review linked below:
    "Its body was also made entirely from laminated maple, but it concealed a nod to a Gibson semi-acoustic breakthrough that was still three years in the future: a solid block of maple in the center of the body, under the bridge. A feature that many players and collectors apparently remain unaware of today – given the ES-225 is often assumed to be fully hollow, like the lesser ES-125 or the ES-330 – this maple block doesn’t run the full length of the body as it would in the ES-335 family."

    I thought I remembered a Guitar Player review of the 225 and I found it - click the link to read it. It contains some great info, but it also raises a question. According to this article, "In the last two years of its existence, the ES-225 was fitted with a traditional nickel trapeze tailpiece and floating bridge with compensated rosewood saddle piece, which changes the nature of the design in several ways" - and 1959 was the last year of production.

  16. #15

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    Es-225 guitars do not have a center block that connects the top and the bottom... per say like a 335. Es-225s do though have a block attached to the top to provide support and make the guitar less feedback prone. Years ago I read that the block is approximately 4" x 2.5'' x 0.75" thick.

    Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-screen-shot-2022-06-29-12-07-04-pm-png

    Screenshot from this video...



    Source of below quote... The Gibson ES-225 Remains One of the Most Overlooked Golden Era Guitars | GuitarPlayer
    Its body was also made entirely from laminated maple, but it concealed a nod to a Gibson semi-acoustic breakthrough that was still three years in the future: a solid block of maple in the center of the body, under the bridge.

    A feature that many players and collectors apparently remain unaware of today – given the ES-225 is often assumed to be fully hollow, like the lesser ES-125 or the ES-330 – this maple block doesn’t run the full length of the body as it would in the ES-335 family, but still helps to reduce feedback, while yielding a more aggressive attack and sharper articulation.

  17. #16

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    It's significant that the maple block under the bridge does not connect the top to the back, it only reinforces the top under the bridge making the top 'thicker' at the bridge.

    My 225 also had a post inserted at some point when a third pickup was added between the neck and bridge pickups, which I think was wise because there isn't much wood left in the center of the top now with three P-90's in it.

    Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-20220514_195929_resized-jpg

    Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-20220514_195940_resized_1-jpg

    But back to the original question, something does seem a bit 'off' in your pics. The bulge of the top seems more pronounced than on mine, but I doubt the neck being pulled into the guitar over time (and thus needing a reset) would create this; more likely it would just pivot on the top seam and the heel of the neck would detach. That would create a higher action like we see in your pics. So not sure what's up.

    Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-20220629_140222_resized-jpg

    Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-20220629_140215_resized-jpg

    EDIT: I just noticed in your original pics that your fingerboard extension piece over the body doesn't seem original, so maybe it has already had some work done on the neck?

    EDIT EDIT: These pics are My 225, not the OP's...
    Last edited by Rhythmisking; 06-29-2022 at 05:42 PM.

  18. #17

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    I don't know anything about this subject, so take this with a grain of salt.

    As I look at the neck pickup, I see it screwed down flush with the top. That screw is in the middle, given that the picture is taken from the side.

    The front edge of the pickup, nearest the neck, is not in contact with the top. And, neither is the back edge.

    Doesn't that suggest that the top is convex (bulging towards the ceiling of the room) and the pickup is straddling the top of the hill?

    If the top is sinking, how do you get both edges elevated? What am I missing?

  19. #18

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    I'm no expert, but it does look like the top, near the neck has "collapsed".....bringing the neck down with it....

    Ray










  20. #19

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    Sort of seems like the neck was changed out. This picture seems consistent with the model year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythmisking






    Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-20220629_140215_resized-jpg

    EDIT: I just noticed in your original pics that your fingerboard extension piece over the body doesn't seem original, so maybe it has already had some work done on the neck?

    EDIT EDIT: These pics are My 225, not the OP's...

  21. #20

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    As was pointed out that curly maple fingerboard extension looks way too tall, yet the action is still way high. Maybe the neck angle was changed in the last couple yrs to compensate for the new bridge/tailpiece setup.

    "I am 62 years old and my neck needs a reset, too."

    Hah, I'm gonna borrow that Cunamara

  22. #21
    First of all, thank you all for your helpful comments! What a great responsive community.
    Now, after a little foto research I find there seems to be quite a bit of a difference between the maple neck extension over the top of the guitar on the following pics. My guitar is the last in line, the others are from the internet. The shape of mine grows thicker towards the neck pickup, the others actually thinner. Do you think there was a a neck reset done before? Or did different neck extensions exist? Please chime in!
    Attached Images Attached Images Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-3cfcbc8e-51b5-4723-92f5-0d13c394155d-jpeg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-b7e1b96a-1a0b-46cb-84e7-b92ae42d2b4f-jpeg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-fc5abdca-417a-4dad-b4b2-43dc87f36b8f-jpeg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-23ccedd4-39fc-49fd-8725-e6ea40872f8b-jpeg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-5f8b0212-4a47-475b-9a66-46db8b21657b-jpeg Gibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-540c7dde-58a4-47f6-b48b-e224a97c39b4-jpg 

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinrich
    First of all, thank you all for your helpful comments! What a great responsive community.
    Now, after a little foto research I find there seems to be quite a bit of a difference between the maple neck extension over the top of the guitar on the following pics. My guitar is the last in line, the others are from the internet. The shape of mine grows thicker towards the neck pickup, the others actually thinner. Do you think there was a a neck reset done before? Or did different neck extensions exist? Please chime in!
    From the pics, there definitely appears to be a "bulge" just at the neck pickup on yours....as others have stated and you , perhaps the neck or a section was redone to compensate for this "defect" but, it would seem the "top'' is winning......

    Ray

  24. #23

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    Look around the neck joint, does it look like it's ever been off?

  25. #24

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    That neck was never reset. Did you take the measurements I told you that are important. If so then play this guitar and don’t obsess over it. So far there has been nothing from you about how the guitar plays?

    Don’t take this wrong but frankly the first test only any guitar is how it as it stands. So how does this stack up with your other guitars. Does the notes all play up and down fretboard? Does the action feel high or low? You don’t need tools for this use those God given hands and fingers. Assess guitar as it is then think about what needs to be done. I seriously doubt the neck was ever reset.

    I bought a Gibson Legrand I think One year ago. I played it and first impression was great guitar but action was actually too low for me. It did not buzz or play bad but a simple turn of bridge wheels and the guitar was much better for me.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    I’d expect loose binding or some sign of separation from the body at the heel.
    There appears to be a binding "issue" separation near the neck and body and, no offence but i would definitely prefer a lower action vs a higher one with a pinned down bridge..YMMV

    Ray