The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    At the price these go for, why not just take it right away to your luthier and have it checked out....certainly worth a few hundreds $$$ ? Luthier might actually pay you just for the privilege !

    Ray

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    That neck was never reset. Did you take the measurements I told you that are important. If so then play this guitar and don’t obsess over it. So far there has been nothing from you about how the guitar plays?

    Don’t take this wrong but frankly the first test only any guitar is how it as it stands. So how does this stack up with your other guitars. Does the notes all play up and down fretboard? Does the action feel high or low? You don’t need tools for this use those God given hands and fingers. Assess guitar as it is then think about what needs to be done. I seriously doubt the neck was ever reset.
    Maybe yes, maybe no. One way or another the way this neck sits into this body is atypical for normal ES-225 construction, which is at least a curiosity. But to me it doesn't look like anything is currently unstable or needing to be 'fixed'; if it's solid, it's fine, It's just unusual. And it's a cool guitar.

    Playability is another matter.

    The action does seem a bit high, but it also looks like you have a little room to lower the bridge if everything else with the neck is good. As has been said a good setup may be in order. But I wouldn't worry about any sort of immanent failure or anything. Personally I think it's had work done on the neck; maybe decades ago, but so what. The main thing is playability.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayS
    There appears to be a binding "issue" separation near the neck and body and, no offence but i would definitely prefer a lower action vs a higher one with a pinned down bridge..YMMV
    Ray
    Why in the world would you think I’d take offense at that? I’m happy if you’re happy!

  5. #29

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    The first hump (of the double humped top) looks fine to me; a good strong shape and arch like that shouldn't sink. It's a strong structure. The wider 2nd hump under the bridge is the one that usually sags under weight.

    The pickup over the hump not sitting flush, is usually a Gibson quirk of quality control. In this case it could also be age slightly warping the pickup casing?

    The issue seems to be the neck potentially needing a reset for two reasons:

    1) It's pulled up too much.

    2) Thin-lline guitars don't have the strength in the sides that full /medium body guitars and thus the guitar body, will start folding in on itself, as the strings pull neck and tail piece together.
    The waist and cutaway are the places with the least wood and are therefore the weaker areas, susceptible to forces over time. This makes the bridge and neck move closer together and the action will get higher.

    It's also worth mentioning that in thin-lines, the neck block is very small and this will start to essentially push downwards, pulling the neck join below the original x/y plane, the guitar was designed and constructed on. This means the neck join is now somewhat lower to the nut than it should be and thus the nut and the bridge are now higher comparatively.

    Of course this is in extreme cases but having scanned vintage guitars; the bodies all warp and fold up to some degree at the waist. A thin-line will do so more than others (ime). Again we're taking small amounts, unnoticeable to the eye, but there could be a deviation between the back of the body and the neck join, by +2mm.

    You can tell this is happening if the neck looks like it has a good enough angle to the body but the action cannot be set low enough. There are other reasons this can happen though, mostly to do with design flaws etc. The arch being too high, the bridge being too tall, the tail piece not allowing enough brake angle etc..

    Fingers crossed the truss rod is working and you can get the neck straightened to an acceptable degree. If not you can always heat treat mahogany with some success. If the angle is still off (action too high) but the neck still has a decent angle, then you might find the body has warped a bit.

    I'd certainly ask the seller for several days grace and work out a return plan if possible. i.e if you bought it off ebay, reverb, or a shop, you should mention that you see a fundamental problem. Then go get it looked at and with permission from the seller.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 06-30-2022 at 01:12 PM.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    The first hump (of the double humped top) looks fine to me; a good strong shape and arch like that shouldn't sink. It's a strong structure. The wider 2nd hump under the bridge is the one that usually sags under weight.

    The pickup over the hump not sitting flush, is usually a Gibson quirk of quality control. In this case it could also be age slightly warping the pickup casing?

    The issue seems to be the neck potentially needing a reset for two reasons:

    1) It's pulled up too much.

    2) Thin-lline guitars don't have the strength in the sides that full /medium body guitars and thus the guitar body, will start folding in on itself, as the strings pull neck and tail piece together.
    The waist and cutaway are the places with the least wood and are therefore the weaker areas, susceptible to forces over time. This makes the bridge and neck move closer together and the action will get higher.

    It's also worth mentioning that in thin-lines, the neck block is very small and this will start to essentially push downwards, pulling the neck join below the original x/y plane, the guitar was designed and constructed on. This means the neck join is now somewhat lower to the nut than it should be and thus the nut and the bridge are now higher comparatively.

    Of course this is in extreme cases but having scanned vintage guitars; the bodies all warp and fold up to some degree at the waist. A thin-line will do so more than others (ime). Again we're taking small amounts, unnoticeable to the eye, but there could be a deviation between the back of the body and the neck join, by +2mm.

    You can tell this is happening if the neck looks like it has a good enough angle to the body but the action cannot be set low enough. There are other reasons this can happen though, mostly to do with design flaws etc. The arch being too high, the bridge being too tall, the tail piece not allowing enough brake angle etc..

    Fingers crossed the truss rod is working and you can get the neck straightened to an acceptable degree. If not you can always heat treat mahogany with some success. If the angle is still off (action too high) but the neck still has a decent angle, then you might find the body has warped a bit.

    I'd certainly ask the seller for several days grace and work out a return plan if possible. i.e if you bought it off ebay, reverb, or a shop, you should mention that you see a fundamental problem. Then go get it looked at and with permission from the seller.
    Sound advice ......curiously the other ES 225s pics also show some intriguing "oddities" that may or may nor affect playability.....the one with the bixby also has similar magnet poles pulled up all over the place...yours does seem to have a binding split but then it is a rather old model so maybe expectedGibson ES-225 - Neck position, sunken top? Please have a look!-screen-shot-2022-06-30-18-28-27-png.....regardless, this is a rare guitar and very collectable in almost whatever condition...Good luck.....

    Ray

  7. #31

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    I was looking at some other NGD and I noticed that the block under the fingerboard extension on that ES-175 seems to be the same as this. Is it possible that this was just a guitar made this way at the factory because those were the parts they had on hand to complete it? "Put it together and ship it, Marvin!"

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    I was looking at some other NGD and I noticed that the block under the fingerboard extension on that ES-175 seems to be the same as this. Is it possible that this was just a guitar made this way at the factory because those were the parts they had on hand to complete it? "Put it together and ship it, Marvin!"
    I think the factory fitted wood piece between the fingerboard extension and the top gets thinner toward the pickup on the 225. But as I recall on mine, it gets thicker toward the pickup on the 175. So the one on the OP's instrument does resemble those I recall seeing on 175s rather than the stock 225 piece. AH seems quite confident that the top on this guitar is fine. I'm not a luthier and have no reason to dispute this other than my visual impression and experience with a few such Gibsons. I hope AH is correct.

    On the off chance that it has sunk in a bit between the neck PU and the end of the body, I can see the appeal of fitting a block like the 175's, thinking it would fill the space and stabilize the neck over the distorted top if done well. But that would be an example of doing the wrong job the right way, since it wouldn't do anything to stabilize and support the top. Even with excellent adaptation and strong glue, it probably wouldn't hold the top up beause all the force on the top is downward there. If the top has sunk, it's also stretched a bit and is therefore thinner and weaker than it was when new. Without added support inside the body, a proper neck reset, and a properly fitted filler block between the newly aligned extension and top, I'd expect the process to continue unchecked.

    I truly hope I'm wrong.

  9. #33

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    I think it's highly unlikely the top sunk between the neck and the front pickup. More likely this was the way the top plate was made.

    It's not impossible that it was this way from the factory. They wouldn't have bothered trying to custom fit a special fingerboard extension to a single mal-formed top, they would just throw that top out. But if they had a few dozen or even a hundred of these tops that has a slightly different arch profile but were otherwise perfectly fine for a 225, why not use them if you could easily make them work?

    These are all press-formed plates for the tops and backs. It's possible there were some top plates that were meant for different guitars that got used (or 'used up') on some 225's. It would have been a simple matter to make up a bunch of different fingerboard extension pieces to work with these tops.

  10. #34

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  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhythmisking
    I think it's highly unlikely the top sunk between the neck and the front pickup. More likely this was the way the top plate was made. It's not impossible that it was this way from the factory. They wouldn't have bothered trying to custom fit a special fingerboard extension to a single mal-formed top, they would just throw that top out. But if they had a few dozen or even a hundred of these tops that has a slightly different arch profile but were otherwise perfectly fine for a 225, why not use them if you could easily make them work?

    These are all press-formed plates for the tops and backs. It's possible there were some top plates that were meant for different guitars that got used (or 'used up') on some 225's. It would have been a simple matter to make up a bunch of different fingerboard extension pieces to work with these tops.
    I agree with you - that wasn't done at the factory for just one guitar. In those days, they would have either sawed it up or fitted a new top before selling it. I was actually thinking that someone may have tried to fix a loose neck angle (which would have meant a loose joint as well) by removing it and shaping that piece to fit between the reset (or maybe just reglued) neck and the deformed top that resulted from the neck's force on it.

    I have no idea whether that top is "normal" or not. But it would have raised an alarm for me.

  12. #36

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    It turns out our favourite Youtube luthier has discovered the body on his ES225 is folding in on itself.
    It's likely this is what's happening to the OP's guitar. There are cures for this but Twoodrfd doesn't seem to give any, likely because they would be too expensive and would take some time to achieve.
    I imagine he would use a brace vice, to push the two plates apart, whilst adding reinforcing braces to stop it from collapsing again. You could also build a side brace to pull the sides flat, allowing them to be held down against the forces of the vice inside.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 07-11-2022 at 08:15 AM.

  13. #37

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    I have to wonder how this Luthier could possibly charge enough to compensate for his time?? Particularly because the end result is not all that much better than the beginning, on a guitar that really isn't that valuable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

    It turns out our favourite Youtube luthier has discovered the body on his ES225 is folding in on itself.
    It's likely this is what's happening to the OP's guitar. There are cures for this but Twoodrfd doesn't seem to give any, likely because they would be too expensive and would take some time to achieve.
    I imagine he would use a brace vice, to push the two plates apart, whilst adding reinforcing braces to stop it from collapsing again. You could also build a side brace to pull the sides flat, allowing them to be held down against the forces of the vice inside.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    The guitar has been around for 62 years. Sort of like buy an older house. They might need attention from time to time or in the future but very liveable now and they are not going to fall apart.

    We recently moved into a 50's ranch. Structurally this sucker is built like a frikkin' solid rock from roof to basement. Just some cosmetic care needed. They sure don't build 'em like this anymore.