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Greetings jazzy stuff guitarists.
I have a question that may well be a touch dumb.
if it does come across that way, well so be it.
to me it isn't that stupid as I don't know the answer.
Is one big amp better than two smaller amps of equal output value?
if so why?
The "depends what you want to do" answer is pretty irrelevant to me. I don't really want to do anything, I currently run a 10W practice amp and a 25W bass amp in stereo through a hall of fame 2x4 with the 10W sat on top of the bass amp, so no real stereo effect other than for the spider that lives between them.
As to why... because I can, no other reason.
I have no plans to play Wembley stadium this week, so I am not particularly interested in high volume. (I have both turned down low and the guitar is only turned to 2.5-3 as its just so loud)
I probably won't be changing this set up anytime soon as it suits my low expectations and bad to terrible abilities.
I am merely curious about benefits or pitfalls of either set up.
seeing as I don't know the answer I thought I might throw it out there to those with a greater understanding than I about all things buzzy with twisty knobs on.
I may well change my set up later this year as I am considering either a new falcon or a really good hofner of similar price (I am not decided on direction yet).
All answers offered are welcome, even from sarcastic or derogatory sources if their comments are creative (I do enjoy a touch of well worded banter)
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06-05-2022 08:21 AM
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Welcome!
So, there are no "dumb" or "numpty" questions here!
Although you don't want "it depends" responses ... a lot of your info leads to, "It depends!"
Your main question is: "Is one big amp better than two smaller amps of equal output value?"
- first, "better" is completely subjective, of course, and leads to, "Better for what/whom?!"
- you then mention two completely different amps you're currently using (10W practice amp [what speaker size?] and a 25W bass amp [what speaker size?], so these aren't "amps of equal output value;"
- [we can also quibble about "solid state vs tube/valve" amps/watts, but that's another rabbit hole!]
- with the "one amp" option, are you looking at cabs/combos with one or two speakers, and what size?
- in general, though, two speakers will sound "louder" (but not necessarily "better") than one speaker, so that's something.
If you want to have fun with some new gear, maybe just grab a 20W tube combo (or head/cab) with a 10" or 12" speaker, and you'll be happy!
Enjoy!
Marc
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Hmmm.....
Thank you Marc for pointing out my subjective error.
I agree, no such thing as better....
I guess my over generalised question was more of a philosophical ponderance upon what one might expect (using my own set up as an example, 10W plus 25W = 35W combined) if one compared relative like for like, so 1 amp at 35W of comparable quality vs 2 amps that equal 35 W.
when i say comparable i mean speakers are similar quality as is electronics, (could be 2x 50W marsh's vs 1x 100W marshall from the same range) would it merely be a volume difference (forgetting any peculiarities of individual difference, ie one being sweeter sounding just because it is, do you know what i mean?)
I am beginning to realise the futility of my question....
there can be numpty questions after all.....
Thank you for responding kindly.
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Sorry, but it really does depend on what you want to do, and what you mean by better. For my purposes, I happen not to have any high powered amps. I have two of similar output wattage (though one is louder than the other because it's a tube amp with a bigger and more efficient speaker). So if I happened to find myself in a situation where neither of my amps is loud enough on its own, I'd bring both. If it happened often (it doesn't, but if ...), I'd get one more powerful amp because schlepping two is worse than schlepping one.
Other than that, the only value I can see in using two is to play them in stereo with some combination of stereo delay, reverb, or chorus because it's a cool sound. But that's generally not practical in the places I play (and I really only like it for the sake of variety on occasion).
For home use one small amp is enough for me (10 watts is plenty if it's a good sounding amp). But I play out and also have guitarist guests from time to time, so having more than one amp is useful to me.
None of that answers the question of which is better for you. Only you can do that, and it might take some experimentation.
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Marcwhy covered things nicely. I have a few characteristically random thoughts:
1) With the way you have your amps set up, you may want to make sure both speakers are oriented in the same plane (assuming that plane is at 90 degrees from horizontal. You will get better "bass coupling" and hence a "fuller" sound.
2) "Loud is more good," as they say at JHS pedals. In my book, moving more air is even betterer. I prefer the sound of two speakers properly aligned to two cabinets with the same size speakers not aligned, and four speakers over that. My favorite cab of all time had six 10" speakers for 5.4 ohms. Getting two separate amps/cabs lined up to limit phase cancelations can be tricky. When I do use two amps, I do it for stereo imaging, which removes the problem.
3) On a gig, I favor one amp sufficiently light to carry in one hand (guitar in the other) or cheap enough to be abandoned during a quick getaway. See example from this thread: Surreal Stories From The Bandstand Collection Thread post#4
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Welcome! There is certainly nothing wrong with using two amps at once, many pros do that, although not necessarily most jazz players, who like to keep things simple. I'm thinking more like blues and rock players. When I used to use two it was to get some grit from a small amp and clean from a bigger amp. It was great for recording rhythm parts, but pretty loud in the room!
In your case, the idea of having a bass amp as a second amp could certainly help fill out the bottom and low mids nicely. It can tend to spread out the sound somewhat as well, which can be either a good or bad thing, sometimes the focus of one amp is preferable. Also a more spread out sound can contribute to feedback if you are using an arch top.
I like using two amps now if I am in the mood for stereo effects. Pat Metheny has been doing that for years. I use two similar amps for this and run either stereo chorus or delays, it's kind of fun. Reverb I don't notice the effect as much but it is there as well. Or you can run dry into one amp and effects into the second. This is called a wet/dry setup. You can even do wet/dry/wet, if the direct sound of your amp is important to you. That can be useful if you are using a distorted sound for the dry. I use a reamper (Fryette Power Station) for that and run a line out to stereo effects, but it's complicated and a pain to setup so I rarely bother with it, just to get my ya yas out occasionally! But it's great for a cranked Marshall type amp with two Deluxes for the effects, sounds huge! I rarely play with distortion anymore so don't use that setup much, I'm kind of a clean setup with a bit of reverb type now.
So those are the main benefits I can think of for using two. The benefits of using one are lack of complication, a more focused sound, and maybe less volume. I wouldn't bother gigging with two, that was a pain when I tried it.
Hope that helps!
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thank you for responding John.
I really don't want anything. I am not looking to change what I have, I was really questioning what one might experience differently with a single amp vs 2 amps with a similar output. 35 single vs 35 of the combined two? could be 2x50 vs 1x100. is it the 2 would just be louder (or the other way around?)
would it sound clearer at lower volume using 2?
no difference ?
maybe i need to experiment....
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There are too many variables to predict what will happen in the abstract. For instance, the distortion/clean-headroom characteristics of amps are not entirely linear with nominal power ratings, and the interactions between an amp and a speaker are different at different power and distortion levels.
Originally Posted by Doktah B
So at a given dB level one set-up might be more distorted than the other, but I don't think I could predict which just on the basis of rated power (without even getting into the complications of "rated power").
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oooh more responses, will get back to you after food,...
belly says i need to go for a bit....
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Cool! And be careful -- the engineers here will explain that "10 + 25" does not equal "35," and the differences in volume (vs "headroom" -- another rabbit hole!) are hardly noticeable! So much to consider! Originally Posted by Doktah B
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Thank you again for responding john, I really do get the confounding variables, two exact cars built side by side will still have one faster or accelerates quicker. one pool ball hitting another is predictable, hitting the rack, we enter the wild and woolly world of non linear dynamics.
we can however predict they will spread somewhat haphazardly among the lower end of the table. sure , the occasional one will roll away to the top end, or pop down the proverbial rabbit hole of the pocket. my question was more akin to the masses hanging out in a collective fashion like a bar full of jazz players around a blonde super 400. just general expectations rather than a solid definitive moment.
i do appreciate your taking the time to respond, as i said, i have no clue...
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Thank you Bluejaybill,
The reverb I use is awesome, covers up an awful lot of mishap, and it does make me sound better than I am.
Although I don't always have it on, I use the HOF as a signal splitter, which works with it off too.
As for feedback, I got my first scream of it the other day, I was so chuffed, dunno how I did it but it sounded cool and I could play it a little until it stopped and I couldn't do it again...
As for lack of complication, makes sense. I do have a lot of coiled wire around, although with the HOF on I seem to get no buzz at all.
If I link to the computer I have even more cables with power floating around.
The bass amp does add a little something extra, although I did have to balance the volumes out a bit to get it right as it sounded way too loud for a while.
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Hello CitizenK74,
you were the 1st person to welcome me here a few days ago. thank you, and for your input too.
Both speakers are usually facing the same way (opposite direction to me most of the time )
I seem to recall my father saying something about speakers need to be set up in a certain way else they can cancel each other out .
I can't remember exactly , one big amp or two small ones for guitar a long time ago and i don't have a Ouija board to ask him to repeat himself.
I'm about to check out your link, back soon...
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It can be fun to play with two amps in different configurations: dual mono, stereo, wet/dry, etc. But I can guarantee you will end up spending more time fiddling with knobs, swapping speaker polarity, chasing down ground loops, than you will actually playing. In the end, for me, it’s better to have a couple of different amps of different flavors and take turns playing each one for a while.
Last edited by wzpgsr; 06-06-2022 at 09:03 AM.
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Just to complicate the issue -
It's not so much the rated power of the amplifiers, but the sound pressure output from those systems. The power amplifier puts out a signal of a certain power, but that output signal interacts with the efficiency of the speaker to produce a certain sound pressure level. Thus, somewhat confusingly, a higher-output amplifier coupled with a lower-efficiency speaker can generate the same sound pressure level as a lower-output amplifier coupled with a higher-efficiency speaker.
As for advantages/disadvantages of a one-comboamp setup versus a two-comboamp setup, what really matters is if the player likes the resultant sound. If the two combo amps are not used to create a distributed soundstage, as the OP stated they are not, then the only distinguishing criterion is whether the player likes the sound or not.
The only other issue I can think of is transport. It might be easier to move one package rather than two. Or the reverse.
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For completeness, be aware also that a doubling of power is not a very big increase in perceived loudness, even with the same efficiency speaker. You can hardly hear the difference between a 60 watt amp and 100 watt when all other conditions are controlled to be equal. It's just the way the ear works. Originally Posted by dconeill
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Originally Posted by dconeill
Thank you.
so it's pretty much a case of no discernible difference, if it works for you then grand, if not then do something else.
I am really not good enough to go out and earn a living from playing, most I would get is fruit and empty beer bottles thrown at me.
mind you, if there's money back on the bottles I might make ends meet...
my point is, I'm not ever likely to play anywhere further than my backyard or front porch, most is sitting on the sofa playing along to noise from the computer, or playing alongside my grandkids with their instruments.
I wasn't sure if I were potentially doing something dumb that could be better served with a single.
Other than freeing up power points there appears to be no real benefit to changing what I already do.
So even when I get my Gretsch goose or other awesome hollow body there is no point changing what already works.
I think I may well have paraphrased you somewhat, its how I get things straight in my fading grey matter.
I wasn't planning on changing what I do anyway, I may have done though with some better quality kit, but I really don't think I will now.
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Oddly enough I was aware of the diminishing returns like that. I'm not sure where the sweet spot is (biggest bang for smallest charge). Originally Posted by j4zz
I think the issue was with how I worded my initial question, It seems what I thought was pretty straight forward was in fact not a quantitative one, a matter that relies upon opinion rather than something quantifiable, which is what I was looking for.
So it was my poor use of language. I want something I can't have (again!)
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You'll find that you're not alone in this particular affliction. Originally Posted by Doktah B
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I've gone into my AX8 and then into my 2 different combos before (one 100W and the other 85W), and it's cool
They both sound a bit different, so you get something like a broader spectrum of sound you wouldn't get from a single amp. Also you do get a bit of stereo chorus and delay from those effects, which is oddly less to my ears than it would be through one amp. It wasn't, to me, something worth doing often at home, but I could see doing it live in a bar or something without a PA that could handle the AX8 by itself.
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You know, I do believe you're right. Originally Posted by dconeill
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That does sound cool. Originally Posted by jim777
I've gone into my AX8 and then into my 2 different combos before (one 100W and the other 85W), and it's cool They both sound a bit different, so you get something like a broader spectrum of sound you wouldn't get from a single amp. Also you do get a bit of stereo chorus and delay from those effects, which is oddly less to my ears than it would be through one amp. It wasn't, to me, something worth doing often at home, but I could see doing it live in a bar or something without a PA that could handle the AX8 by itself.
I have a couple of small practice amps and the bass amp, I might have a play with dotting them around the room then having a twang (that's not a euphemism by the way, they don't sound that good).
do you have the MFC101 to go with it?
seriously nice bit of kit though. Are they worth the high tag price?
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It's definitely fun to put them all around the room Originally Posted by Doktah B
You can pretty easily sound like 2 different guitarists with just a pinch of chorus or delay.
As for the AX8, it's Fractal's floor stomp box, so it has it's foot controls all in the one toy. They have a newer more powerful one now (the FM9), but even the AX8 is pretty much ridiculous overkill
You can see most of the AX8 on the floor here on the right:
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