The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Body wood? Neck wood? Saddle material? Pickups? Strings? Does "everything" matter as many strongly assert, or is it the fingers as others strongly assert?

    Well, the following video is placing a number of my sacred cows in danger of heading off to the abattoir:



    I was recently doing some reading about George Van Eps and he said, in an interview, that while working with Epiphone on guitar development, he had one of their folks attach a pickup, tuner, bridge and string to a 2 x 4 and found that the tone was exactly the same as through a pickup on an arch top guitar. He concluded that the pickup was the only real arbiter of tone. Given how different my plank guitars sound from my archtops when I am playing them in my living room, I have had a little bit of difficulty accepting that statement. On the other hand, George had a very precise and scientific mind and would not have said something like this without a lot of consideration.

    However… Check out the comparison between the air guitar and a high-end Tele.

    And now I am re-comparing my Telecaster and Stratocaster which have the same neck pickup in them (Wilde L280) and darned if they don't sound pretty much exactly the same. Hmmm. Are we spending, as a group, a lot of money for things that don't really make any difference in terms of the end product of sound?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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  4. #3

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    Making guitar videos is an opportunity for men to sit in front of a camera with their legs apart, for pleasure and profit. This one has had enough exposure already. I refuse to watch it.

    How do we know his findings are correct? This is YouTube, not Caltech. If peer-reviewed papers were published that supported his claims, then we could all feel foolish for spending all that time and money in the search for tone. Or we could accept that playing a musical instrument made by craftspeople is a lot more fun than some strings stretched across the space between two benches.

  5. #4

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    His absence of body wood test, doesn't prove much, besides the fact that everything else matters too. The wood effect is absorptive, it's not creating anything. It's modifying what's already there. His body less guitar sounds good honestly, but it's highly impractical.


    I would advise checking out the Warmoth YouTube channel. They've done comparisons very fairly and will give you a good idea of the differences in not only wood, but scale length, fret material, etc.


    Long story short, it all matters.

  6. #5

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    Well guitars have to be made out of something, and wood was the material par excellence back in the day. If I don't possess a carbon fiber archtop it's because I wasn't really aware of them the last time I acquired an instrument. Anyway, those Emeralds are pretty pricey, I believe.

    @Litterick: Not something I notice a lot, truth be told, but guys sit with their legs apart because it's more comfortable?

  7. #6

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    I do admire those who put beliefs to the test. What would have improved this video is to have recorded each change then play them without visual cues, sound only. A blinded test is more objective.

    The experience of playing a full sized archtop is definitely different than a tele. You will get a physical sensation, some acoustic sound, and a different positioning on the fretboard. You also will have an automatic inhibition against chicken pickin'.

    Somewhere on YouTube there must be blinded tests between a carved archtop and a solid body with the same strings, pickups, scale length, etc. Maybe that's a L-4 and a Les Paul with PAFs.

    My bias is that the music equipment industry and we tend to overstate the differences. The industry makes money off of hype. We are only human and like what we like for myriad reasons. Having said that, I can't imagine that there are no noticeable differences between archtops and solid bodies in what travels through the signal chain.

    Testimonials mean something but commonly are wrong.

    Here's a comparison between a laminate small hollow body and a LP. Some but not a lot of difference. That doesn't prove much.


  8. #7

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    The amount of figure in the drop cap and the quality of the burst make a HUGE difference in tone, obviously.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  9. #8

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    I hear a definite difference in tone between a solid-body, semi-hollow, and fully-hollow bodies, and to me there is a difference between a deep and shallow hollow body, and between a set and floating pickup. Sometimes subtle, sometimes not so much. If the pickup is vibrating with the top underneath the strings, it makes sense to me that it will affect the tone. Planks with bolt-on necks should sound rather similar, as long as the pickups are the same and everything else is roughly the same. Amps and EQ have a big effect. I've done no scientific experimentation, and all I have to go on is my personal experience. I think everything matters, at least a little. The thing about YouTube videos is that they're free to make and publish, and anyone at all can do it, given a smartphone or a cheap webcam and computer. A YouTube video is not proof of anything, and the veracity is always suspect, unless you know the person who posted it, and perhaps even then.

  10. #9

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    Excellent video, C,
    It would be interesting to try a comparison with hollowbody guitars vs. the 2x4 special. The Science looks good to me in the video.
    Marinero

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    It would be interesting to try a comparison with hollowbody guitars vs. the 2x4 special.
    What actually matters in electric guitar tone?-the_log2-jpg

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Body wood? Neck wood? Saddle material? Pickups? Strings? Does "everything" matter as many strongly assert, or is it the fingers as others strongly assert?

    Well, the following video is placing a number of my sacred cows in danger of heading off to the abattoir:



    I was recently doing some reading about George Van Eps and he said, in an interview, that while working with Epiphone on guitar development, he had one of their folks attach a pickup, tuner, bridge and string to a 2 x 4 and found that the tone was exactly the same as through a pickup on an arch top guitar. He concluded that the pickup was the only real arbiter of tone. Given how different my plank guitars sound from my archtops when I am playing them in my living room, I have had a little bit of difficulty accepting that statement. On the other hand, George had a very precise and scientific mind and would not have said something like this without a lot of consideration.

    However… Check out the comparison between the air guitar and a high-end Tele.

    And now I am re-comparing my Telecaster and Stratocaster which have the same neck pickup in them (Wilde L280) and darned if they don't sound pretty much exactly the same. Hmmm. Are we spending, as a group, a lot of money for things that don't really make any difference in terms of the end product of sound?
    Let me make this observation: the video shows strings tuned to pitch, attached to two substantial wooden assemblages, namely the two tables. That there is air under the strings does not remove wood from the equation. Just sayin'.

  13. #12

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    I would like to second the Warmoth vids, as a resource, to hear the tone differences between the different woods. They are well done.

  14. #13

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    My impression is that single coil vs humbucker makes a big difference.

    I'm less convinced that solid vs semi-with-internal-block makes much difference.

    I'm not convinced that every archtop sounds noticeably different than every solid or semi.

    I wouldn't bet I could tell them all apart in a blindfold test.

    But, otoh, I've never heard anybody get Wes' tone out of anything but a 25.5 archtop, usually an L5.

    If somebody produces Wes' sound from a solid body, I'll change my opinion.

    And, not just Wes. I've heard guitarists, including Reg on this forum, get great tone that I don't believe can be obtained without an archtop.

    I think the guy in the video did a good job, including making a strong case for some un-obvious findings.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    My impression is that single coil vs humbucker makes a big difference.

    I'm less convinced that solid vs semi-with-internal-block makes much difference.

    I'm not convinced that every archtop sounds noticeably different than every solid or semi.

    I wouldn't bet I could tell them all apart in a blindfold test.

    But, otoh, I've never heard anybody get Wes' tone out of anything but a 25.5 archtop, usually an L5.

    If somebody produces Wes' sound from a solid body, I'll change my opinion.

    And, not just Wes. I've heard guitarists, including Reg on this forum, get great tone that I don't believe can be obtained without an archtop.

    I think the guy in the video did a good job, including making a strong case for some un-obvious findings.

    FWIW, scale length is actually one of the biggest factors in the whole equation. I played mostly short scale instruments my whole life, and whenever I pick up a tele, it takes my ears a few minutes to adjust to the difference in overtones.

  16. #15

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    Excellent article for those interested in scale length. There's more, but this is important.

    "Let's look at the 25 1/2" scale (Fig. 3) The strongest component, the first four partials, are fairly smooth (up to 1320Hz). The fifth, ninth, and thirteenth contribute significantly, about 30% to 40% intensity (that's 1650Hz, 1980Hz, and 4290Hz). Remember that the thirteenth sounds discordant, and note that we see almost no activity at the seventh and eighth, and tenth and eleventh. There's a big "valley" between 2200Hz and 2800Hz—very interesting—an absence of a wide band in the upper midrange.

    Fig. 3

    Fig. 4

    Let's compare this to the 25" scale (Fig 4). The strongest component, the first four partials, are not very smooth. The first harmonic, the octave, is about 20% stronger than the others. We're also getting a significant contribution from the fifth, ninth, tenth, and twelfth, (1650Hz, 2970Hz, 3300Hz, and 3960Hz), at about 36% intensity, and the sixth, eleventh, and thirteenth are also contributing at about 25%. Note that the eleventh and thirteenth are discordant, and again there is a little activity at the seventh and eighth. This may be explained by the plucking point that I chose: 1/8 of the scale length, approximately where a guitarist would commonly pluck.

    If we examine the 24 5/8" scale in Fig. 2 (7/8" shorter than the 25 1/2" scale) we see that the first four partials are also not smooth, rather like the 25" scale with a strong second (octave) harmonic. We can also see that the higher partials contribute little to the tone, as the fifth is about 25% and the ninth is at about 30%, and all others are insignificant. There isn't much top end "sizzle" in the shorter scale length. None of this should be surprising to seasoned builders and players. These tests bear out what our ears tell us. We can conclude that the 25 1/2 " scale offers the "smoothest" harmonic response with good presence of the first six partials (the most harmonious), and a bit of the thirteenth for "character" or "edginess." The 25" scale has a less smooth harmonic content with a bit more upper mids. It's also fairly strong in the number of discordant partials (eleventh and thirteenth). The 24 5/8 " scale has the strongest character in the first four partials, with relatively little above the first four. There is an absence of discordant partials, possibly because the shorter length and decreased tension won't allow the string to divide easily into higher partials."



    Novax Guitars: Information: Technical Lecture

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Hmmm. Are we spending, as a group, a lot of money for things that don't really make any difference in terms of the end product of sound?
    This only matters to me if my wife finds out!!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    Somewhere on YouTube there must be blinded tests between a carved archtop and a solid body with the same strings, pickups, scale length, etc. Maybe that's a L-4 and a Les Paul with PAFs.
    well, there is this thanks to Tim Lerch:


  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim777
    This only matters to me if my wife finds out!!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  20. #19

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    Number one priority for "tone" is that the guitar feels right and that intonation is spot on. If the setup is out of whack, the guitar (and your playing) won't sound good. Sometimes a good setup requires serious luthier skills.

    Assuming the guitar is setup to play great, then the major tone contributor is the combination of pickups, amp and speakers. Not to forget the cables including anything plugged in front of the amp. Obviously things like strings, picks and tubes are also part of the equation.

    There are countless of threads on the web discussing "the best pickups" for a certain guitar or "the best speaker" for a certain amp. These discussions always fail to identify the key to unlock tone:

    The combination of gear.

    There are more possible combinations than anyone would be able to test in a lifetime. You could narrow things down and make a short list by some educated guessing, but I still think one needs a bit of luck (and stamina) to find a truly great combination. Some would even call it a rabbit hole.

    At some point you'll find your rig is good enough, then you can focus on your playing. That's ultimately what it's all about (unless you're a constant fettler). Playing skills is also about using the controls on the guitar and amp to dial in a good tone. Some people seem to be able to make almost any combination of gear sound great.

  21. #20

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    The search for tone is a distraction from learning to read.

    Besides, it is all in the head. Nobody has bad tone: guitars, amps and things are made to sound good. What guitarists have is a neurosis, which tells them they have not found tone, and must seek it, so they might achieve perfection. But tone does not exist, beyond the longings of guitarists who cannot read. They think they are in search of the Holy Grail, but in fact they are hunting the Snark.

  22. #21

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    My most interesting practical experiments on all that has been trying to get a jazz sound from solidbody guitars. What seemed to make the biggest difference was manipulating the attack of the note with a compressor pedal, and then the solidbody would get a lot closer. So my conclusions have been, it's not so much the EQ and frequencies combination /overtones etc of the notes that's different on hollow and semi hollow guitars, but the actual attack response of the guitar when you pick notes. Delay that with a compressor when playing a strat or tele, and you start to hear the "knock" you expect out of an archtop. Of course there are still things missing, but you get a lot closer to the ballpark.

    When it comes to what matters on a guitar, i believe everything does, guitar rig, setup, player, band, room and usage. It's a summation of details, depending on how important or perceivable they are to someone. If that video had even the slightest relation with some type of reality i would be an extremely happy player, and thousands of $$$ better off!

  23. #22

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    Oh, people definitely have bad tone...

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    My most interesting practical experiments on all that has been trying to get a jazz sound from solidbody guitars. What seemed to make the biggest difference was manipulating the attack of the note with a compressor pedal, and then the solidbody would get a lot closer. So my conclusions have been, it's not so much the EQ and frequencies combination /overtones etc of the notes that's different on hollow and semi hollow guitars, but the actual attack response of the guitar when you pick notes. Delay that with a compressor when playing a strat or tele, and you start to hear the "knock" you expect out of an archtop. Of course there are still things missing, but you get a lot closer to the ballpark.

    When it comes to what matters on a guitar, i believe everything does, guitar rig, setup, player, band, room and usage. It's a summation of details, depending on how important or perceivable they are to someone. If that video had even the slightest relation with some type of reality i would be an extremely happy player, and thousands of $$$ better off!
    In an acoustic instrument, much of the energy from the vibrating string is dissipated in setting the top in motion. This effect is more pronounced in the archtop, where the somewhat grater mass of the top takes more energy to excite. In the solid body guitar, there is no top to excite, and the vibration of the string is magnetically tracked from the get-go. I consider this a feature-not-a-bug in both cases. The archtop gets its characteristic delayed attack (works well for rushers like me) and plummy tone; the solidbody gets greater treble content dissipating more slowly, enhancing perceived sustain. All in my opinion.

  25. #24

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    This is a good read and a good example of what actually matters in electric guitar tone:

    https://www.jensentone.com/sites/jen...2021%20web.pdf

  26. #25

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    I believe the results of the video to be correct. That's why most of the guitars I buy are either acoustic instruments that have very much their own sound, or pickup combinations that I don't already have.

    If guitars sound indistinguishable, does that lessen their value? I say no.