The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I love reading about what amps people like for a good sound, especially for Jazz. I noted discussions about the Deluxe, even in the Tonemaster version, so I decided to try them all out, head to head, using Fender's own modelling of each - using a GT100 (same new firmware as the GTX100).

    To test them I used my Washburn J3 (es-175 clone), and the only effect I added was a small amount of reverb as the room was quite dry sounding. My method was to set the gain at minimum, volume at maximum, and advance the gain until it was loud enough. Then dial in the tone controls.

    Here's my order of preference and first impressions

    1. '65 Blackface Deluxe
    - even at the default settings, I could hear that this was going to sound good.

    2. '65 Princeton
    - very close second. I just thought the '65 Deluxe had a touch more body to the sound

    3. '57 Tweed Deluxe
    - some nice sweet sounds, just not as "jazzy". Fairly early breakup.
    4. '61 Brownface Deluxe
    - hardest to dial in a good sound. Boxy sounding at most settings. Default settings were quite dirty as well - gain was very touchy, easy to get it to break up.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    So, I saved all the above setups one after the other so I can now flip between them. I am going to experiment more.

    One thing I want to try is swapping speaker/cabinets to see if it is just the speaker that made the brownface so boxy sounding.

    I am also curious how this all correlates to real tube versions, and also the Tonemaster clones.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    I love reading about what amps people like for a good sound, especially for Jazz. I noted discussions about the Deluxe, even in the Tonemaster version, so I decided to try them all out, head to head, using Fender's own modelling of each - using a GT100 (same new firmware as the GTX100).

    To test them I used my Washburn J3 (es-175 clone), and the only effect I added was a small amount of reverb as the room was quite dry sounding. My method was to set the gain at minimum, volume at maximum, and advance the gain until it was loud enough. Then dial in the tone controls.

    Here's my order of preference and first impressions

    1. '65 Blackface Deluxe
    - even at the default settings, I could hear that this was going to sound good.

    2. '65 Princeton
    - very close second. I just thought the '65 Deluxe had a touch more body to the sound

    3. '57 Tweed Deluxe
    - some nice sweet sounds, just not as "jazzy". Fairly early breakup.
    4. '61 Brownface Deluxe
    - hardest to dial in a good sound. Boxy sounding at most settings. Default settings were quite dirty as well - gain was very touchy, easy to get it to break up.
    Those are some classics, no doubt. My two amps are a Tweed Deluxe and a Princeton PRRI with a 12”

    The tweed deluxe has some amazing jazz tones, as the Rudy Van Gelder records attest, but the controls are not the easiest ones. I assume that when they model it they go more for the rock tones.

  5. #4

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    I can tell you that I have owned many vintage Fender Tube amps ( I still have a late 64 Princeton) and the reissues (I have had a few) do not sound like the originals and having fooled with a Tonemaster Deluxe in a store, it sounds different than the originals and the reissues. And to further confuse things, the original Fender tube amps all sound different when you use different speakers and even different tubes. I cannot speak to your modelled sounds, but I have a friend who owns a Brownface Deluxe and with all vintage tubes and a vintage Jensen speaker, it sounds great for jazz. Droolworthy in fact.

    The trick is finding an amp that combined with your favorite guitar delivers the sound you want to hear. Finding that amp (or amps) is a journey that can take time and cost money. But it is a journey that is well worth it.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I can tell you that I have owned many vintage Fender Tube amps ( I still have a late 64 Princeton) and the reissues (I have had a few) do not sound like the originals and having fooled with a Tonemaster Deluxe in a store, it sounds different than the originals and the reissues. And to further confuse things, the original Fender tube amps all sound different when you use different speakers and even different tubes. I cannot speak to your modelled sounds, but I have a friend who owns a Brownface Deluxe and with all vintage tubes and a vintage Jensen speaker, it sounds great for jazz. Droolworthy in fact.

    The trick is finding an amp that combined with your favorite guitar delivers the sound you want to hear. Finding that amp (or amps) is a journey that can take time and cost money. But it is a journey that is well worth it.
    I generally agree with your points. Particularly that tubes and speakers can dramatically change the result. I “tube rolled” for my tweed deluxe for a while until I found “the chosen one” for v1.

    When you try to reduce the number of variables, the differences are smaller. Here’s a video of a vintage Princeton and the HX Stomp model, using the cab of the Stomp in both cases. Check it out around 2:42. It’s pretty remarkable imho. Not a jazz bit, obviously but it gives you an idea.


  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by blille
    Those are some classics, no doubt. My two amps are a Tweed Deluxe and a Princeton PRRI with a 12”

    The tweed deluxe has some amazing jazz tones, as the Rudy Van Gelder records attest, but the controls are not the easiest ones. I assume that when they model it they go more for the rock tones.
    I don't know. My assumption is that they model the hardware, and you should be able to do anything with the controls that you can on the real amp, and more. Hey, I can even adjust the sag in the power supply and the bias on the output tubes.

    What you say about the controls not being the easiest sounds right to me. I will spend more time with the Tweed model over the coming weeks. Thanks

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I can tell you that I have owned many vintage Fender Tube amps ( I still have a late 64 Princeton) and the reissues (I have had a few) do not sound like the originals and having fooled with a Tonemaster Deluxe in a store, it sounds different than the originals and the reissues. And to further confuse things, the original Fender tube amps all sound different when you use different speakers and even different tubes. I cannot speak to your modelled sounds, but I have a friend who owns a Brownface Deluxe and with all vintage tubes and a vintage Jensen speaker, it sounds great for jazz. Droolworthy in fact.

    The trick is finding an amp that combined with your favorite guitar delivers the sound you want to hear. Finding that amp (or amps) is a journey that can take time and cost money. But it is a journey that is well worth it.
    Yep. I already have some setups that I like and will keep. Even one using a Roland Jazz Chorus model. I also have a non-reverb copy of a Deluxe that I built myself, that is a pleasure to jam with. It probably makes about 15 watts max. I used it at rehearsals in small studios many times.

    I have a feeling that the more I play with different speakers (models) the more it will be apparent that this is a big part of the sound.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I can tell you that I have owned many vintage Fender Tube amps ( I still have a late 64 Princeton) and the reissues (I have had a few) do not sound like the originals and having fooled with a Tonemaster Deluxe in a store, it sounds different than the originals and the reissues. And to further confuse things, the original Fender tube amps all sound different when you use different speakers and even different tubes.
    And to further confuse the issue, the originals sounded different when they were new - both objectively and in our memories. Decades of heat, vibration, etc (not to mention the decades themselves) have varying effects on components and individual parts. Very few have survived totally unaltered, and those that have sound quite different from each other in my experience, even if identical in origin. And after decades of maintenance and modification, those that are in great shape are not the same amps.

    We have a hand wired CS PRRI BF in our backline, and it’s a truly great little amp for jazz and blues. Looking inside, it’s pretty close to the original except for the speaker, even to its solid pine cabinet. I don’t honestly remember what they sounded like in the ‘60s, although I heard many. My only ‘60s BF was an early 15” Pro (a rare model I probably should have kept) that I only had briefly because it wasn’t “fat” enough for me - and TBH, I can’t really recall how it sounded. I was a stupid kid at the time.

    I will say that the CS ‘57 Champ does sound like I think I remember the best originals to have sounded - but time may have altered my sonic memory. If I had the spare cash, I’d love to have one.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    And to further confuse the issue, the originals sounded different when they were new - both objectively and in our memories. Decades of heat, vibration, etc (not to mention the decades themselves) have varying effects on components and individual parts. Very few have survived totally unaltered, and those that have sound quite different from each other in my experience, even if identical in origin. And after decades of maintenance and modification, those that are in great shape are not the same amps.

    We have a hand wired CS PRRI BF in our backline, and it’s a truly great little amp for jazz and blues. Looking inside, it’s pretty close to the original except for the speaker, even to its solid pine cabinet. I don’t honestly remember what they sounded like in the ‘60s, although I heard many. My only ‘60s BF was an early 15” Pro (a rare model I probably should have kept) that I only had briefly because it wasn’t “fat” enough for me - and TBH, I can’t really recall how it sounded. I was a stupid kid at the time.

    I will say that the CS ‘57 Champ does sound like I think I remember the best originals to have sounded - but time may have altered my sonic memory. If I had the spare cash, I’d love to have one.

    I didn't include the Champ and Blues Jr models in my shootout, but maybe I should give them a try too. The champ is another one I have built a real clone of, and that never impressed me hugely - but I blamed the little 8" speaker I was using.

    I have seen plenty of opinions that the originals DRs would sound different from amp to amp, even when all new. You found a 'good' one and hung onto it.

  11. #10
    This morning I added a 57 Champ and a Blues Jr. I also included a 59 Bassman just because the patch was already there.

    Initial impressions of these are that the Champ and Blues Jr. both can produce nice usable sounds. I was quite liking them until I switched back to the 65 Blues Deluxe Reverb. In keeping with the physical amp, the Deluxe sounds much bigger and fuller. The sounds have a very similar character though.

    The Bassman has strong clean sounds, somewhere between the 65 Blues Deluxe and the Twin Reverb (which while not in this list, I have used a lot). Not "jazzy" enough for my tastes - just as a first impression.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    This morning I added a 57 Champ and a Blues Jr...Initial impressions of these are that the Champ and Blues Jr. both can produce nice usable sounds. I was quite liking them until I switched back to the 65 Blues Deluxe Reverb. In keeping with the physical amp, the Deluxe sounds much bigger and fuller. The sounds have a very similar character though.
    The Champ is only jazzy at very low volumes, driven by a humbucker and placed on the floor near a room corner. But it's spectacular for creamy, bluesy tones when cranked. The speaker in the CS hand wired model is a very nice Weber, the transformers are excellent Schumachers, and the small bits are high quality. There have been a few "reissues" in the last 20 years, and there were at least 3 distinct circuits in the original Champs. I think the current CS model is by far the best of them - I like it better than any original 5E1 or 5F1 Champ I've ever heard or played through.

    There have been several different models of 5W Champ, some with a 6" speaker and most with an 8. They each have a distinct sound and the one chosen for the model could be any of them.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    The Champ is only jazzy at very low volumes, driven by a humbucker and placed on the floor near a room corner. But it's spectacular for creamy, bluesy tones when cranked. The speaker in the CS hand wired model is a very nice Weber, the transformers are excellent Schumachers, and the small bits are high quality. There have been a few "reissues" in the last 20 years, and there were at least 3 distinct circuits in the original Champs. I think the current CS model is by far the best of them - I like it better than any original 5E1 or 5F1 Champ I've ever heard or played through.

    There have been several different models of 5W Champ, some with a 6" speaker and most with an 8. They each have a distinct sound and the one chosen for the model could be any of them.
    Yes, that's the problem with these models. Production variations are not indicated - i.e. they don't say what speaker was in the one they are modelling. They just call it a '57 champ, so I would assume whatever was most common at that time. My bet is this is modelled on the '57 champ reissue - which I believe is the 5F1 circuit. The only hugely different champ circuit was the early 5C1 which used a 6SJ7 pentode preamp, rather than the 12ax7s that most use.

    You mention putting the amp in a corner - yes, I have used room acoustics to help a sound like that. As for "only jazzy at very low volumes" that totally makes sense. Big advantage here is that I can run the model at those low volumes, but then raise the GT100's master gain, independantly at get much more real volume.

  14. #13

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    I've used a champ successfully at non-drum gigs. The speaker enclosure also plays a part in the sound, generally the bigger the better. 8', even 6.5' speakers can be made to sound good, and I wouldn't believe it before gigging these types of amps.

    For me jazz amps come in two flavors. One is the twin reverb type of sound, the scooped mids and very clean sound type of amp. These amps have great headroom and really support a perfectly clean sound.

    But there's a second type as well, the tweed type, or even amps like the Princeton (meaning small wattage), that you can push a bit and they give you a certain type of dynamic response to play with. This type of playing, controlling the amp with guitar volume and picking dynamics, is something I've grown to like the last few years. These days if I play a twin I miss that. My perfect amp is a tube amp with no master volume, that is wattage suitable for the gigs you play, so you can turn it up.

    The new amps do sound different from the old ones. A lot of reissues are very successful though. Judging from friends however, I've seen more new tube amps fail (after say 10 years), than older ones (that might be 40 years old and run perfectly), strangely enough..

    That's a great time gear wise for gigging musicians. Lots of tiny and portable solid state and digital solutions, and most live places have a backline that lets you use anything really, depending on what you're comfortable gigging with.

    For reference, nowadays I use three tube amps depending on gig: a vintage Princeton reverb with an upgraded speaker, a new pro junior iv (which sounds great for the midget it is!), and a Victoria 518 champ clone. Also an Aer and a Lunchbox reverb. If I need more power, I just carry two of them! Planning to get a Henriksen Blu 6 this coming year.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    I've used a champ successfully at non-drum gigs. The speaker enclosure also plays a part in the sound, generally the bigger the better. 8', even 6.5' speakers can be made to sound good,
    The speaker is certainly important. That's still to come in my testing of these amps in the virtual world, but I know in real life a small single ended amp (like a Champ) can sound great through a bigger, say 12", speaker.

  16. #15

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    It may not be everyone’s idea of a “jazz tone” but Julian Lage has done some pretty awesome stuff with a Tele through a tweed Champ.


  17. #16

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    Every minute I had a soldering pencil in my hand, I bet he was practicing. I need to practice more. However, I do have both original tweed and blackface champs which by that very statement makes me just as good as him...right