Feedback?

[charleyrich99]

I am planning on getting my first fully carved archtop, perhaps a Holst or a Tim Bram. How significant is the feedback issue?

I play in a duo with a female singer and also in a group with drums, bass, violin and horns. How loud can I get without feed back? I usually drape an sm57 mic over my amp and put it in the PA.

Will it only be usable at home? I am used to muting strings from my rock days. I am just wondering if I am setting up myself for disappointment. Thoughts?

--Charley

[AllanAllen]

Ted Nugent played carved top Gibson Byrdland's through Marshall full stacks. Like most things you read online, the feedback thing is overblown.

[charleyrich99]

Ted Nugent played carved top Gibson Byrdland's through Marshall full stacks. Like most things you read online, the feedback thing is overblown.

Good point. Did Ted stuff the guitar holes or just controlled it with his palm?

[wintermoon]

just position yourself between the guitar and amp and you'll be ok
if you're righthanded have the amp situated over your left shoulder [but on the ground not on your shoulder ]

[Satishk]

just position yourself between the guitar and amp and you'll be ok
if you're righthanded have the amp situated over your left shoulder [but on the ground not on your shoulder ]

yes i agree with you, and I am sure he is righthanded

[charleyrich99]

yes i agree with you, and I am sure he is righthanded

How would you know if I am right handed?

[rpjazzguitar]

FWIW, I could never stop feedback based on the geometry of where the amp was and which way I faced. And, it's not just howl, it can also be unwanted reinforcement of some low frequencies.

I ended up stuffing the guitar. The acoustic sound became muffled (I may have stuffed it a little too much) but the amplified sound was fine.

But, if you're going to dampen the top with stuffing, would you really need a carved top guitar?

[j4zz]

Playing a laminated top, I had a need to provoke fedback at a certain point in a song. At rehearsals I was able to lean close to the amp, and it then sustained indefinitely, and I could actually control it.

Problem was, come time to do it live on stage, it just wouldn't happen. Room acoustics matter. The band was let down

[Mark M.]

I have often played carved guitars in similar situations and haven’t had a problem. Keep the amp on your left side (assuming you are right handed), just be careful about your volume control on the guitar. Adjust if necessary from the amp.

[Cunamara]

Feedback is a frequent issue with these guitars. I have found that this varies depending on the amp, the guitar, the room, etc. On some stages I had a lot of trouble with feedback, on other stages very little- with the exact same instrument and amp. With some amps I have tried, I can't even bring the volume up to conversational level without getting feedback (this is at home), with other amps not much of a problem.

I think frequently the culprit is bass frequencies causing the feedback, which on my guitar is always the lower strings. Rolling back the bass knob on the amp can help a lot. Getting the amp up off the floor to decouple it and reduce the emphasis on bass notes can also be effective. Using an amp with a smaller speaker (10 inch or 8 inch) can reduce the propensity to feedback compared to a 12 inch speaker. I have never resorted to stuffing the guitar nor have I ever put packing tape over the F holes, although many professional jazz guitarists do this (such as George Benson).

My personal solution, however, has been solid body instruments. This is not really because of feedback but because I like the sustain and pianistic quality those instruments afford. However, I still really, really love playing my archtop guitar purely acoustically which I can't say about the solid bodies. And with the right amp, that archtop sounds magnificent; on Monday evenings I get together with a friend who plays bass and we do some duo music in his living room. He has a mid 60s silverface Fender Twin Reverb and I have to say the combination of that amp and my guitar is just outstanding. I roll the bass and treble knobs down to zero and dime the midrange, more or less. There is just some thing about how that amp rounds off the treble notes so that they are sweet rather than spiky.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

How loud can I get without feedback?

As the saying goes, “it depends” - it depends on the venue, the specific instrument, how you play, what amp you use and where you place it, use of sound reinforcement etc etc. I think the key info here is this:

I usually drape an sm57 mic over my amp and put it in the PA.

Playing through the house system adds multiple factors like placement of main and monitor speakers, EQ use, room resonances etc. Every venue is different.

Minimizing radiation of direct sound from your amp to your guitar is step 1. This is what putting yourself between your amp and guitar does. Elevating the amp off the floor and not positioning its back against a wall or in a corner will roll off low frequency reinforcement (the “boundary effect”) by at least 3 dB per surface. Smaller drivers have higher free air resonance frequencies and are generally less prone to acoustic feedback than large ones in open back cabs. Closed cabs minimize this difference and vents or ports have a varying effect depending on design, total Q etc.

Open back cabs are unpredictable in this regard because the sound coming out the back is 180 degrees out of phase with front radiated sound. This can actually cancel enough output from some cabs in some positions at some frequencies in some rooms to make feedback much more or less of a problem.

I use closed or tightly ported cabs. Whenever possible, I place my amp backwards with the speaker facing a back or side wall along the stage or performance area. If used, a mic is between the amp and the wall. The distance and angulation to the wall affect EQ and feedback and are easily controlled by moving the amp around. Even an inch or three can have a profound effect. And your stage sound is entirely reflected & diffused, which eliminates beaming and usually makes hearing you easier for you and the band with less volume needed from any stage monitors. Unmic’ed in small venues, your sound is more evenly dispersed throughout the room.

The guitar obviously matters. Many carved solid guitars are feedback generators, but some of the thick topped thunky ones seem fairly resistant. I suspect that those big Gibsons used for rock, funk etc 30 to 50 years ago were in that category. Others have discussed the effects on feedback of factors like top thickness & contour, bracing etc on JGO. My Eastman 810 feeds back much more readily than any laminated archtop I ever had if I crank the volume (which I’ve only done at home to see how it sounded).

Laminates are generally less prone to feedback but not all and not always. My gigging archtop is a fine laminated MIJ ‘97 Ibanez that sounds great but does feed back a bit at higher stage volumes if I don’t palm mute. We started using IEMs at my weekly club gigs this year, which really helped us keep our stage volume down to save our hearing, control feedback, and let us all hear ourselves and each other.

Bottom line? For maximum flexibility, I use and suggest a great small amp (but not one with a fully open back) with a direct out for sound reinforcement, early arrival and meticulous sound checks at gigs, and a good laminated top. Ply guitars can sound great and are much less prone to damage from sudden changes in temp and the ravages of gigging. I love my carved guitar, but it stays home.

[charleyrich99]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies!