The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've tried to ask this before in another one of my threads, but got no reply.

    I've always thought that all plain wire trebles were basically equal, apart from some variation in treatments presumably mostly aiming at keeping them "tarnish free" for as long as possible.

    However,
    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    Some members on here have claimed that there are differences in steel plain trebles (alloys, treatments,...) that translate to different sound signatures. I'm willing to experiment a bit with that; which ones should give the least jingly sound and/or are the least susceptible to sounding like a snare when plucked just the wrong way (my fingers reject heavier than a 13 E and 16 B)?
    I've read a few of the relevant threads on the AGF and read some positive remarks about d'Addario NYXL trebles (it's never clear to what extent people judged them without the sympathetic resonance from the lower strings). The only individually available NYXL trebles I've found to date are the XT ones; is there any substance to the idea they sound warmer?
    What do people here do, just use the trebles that came with the set (or the equivalents from a heaver set)? Or order other that really sound better?

    EDIT: I'm much more interested in the acoustic sound than the electric sound (surprise... )
    Last edited by RJVB; 05-13-2022 at 07:12 AM.

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  3. #2

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    My inclination is that they are all basically equal in terms of tone although I suppose something like coating them in brass versus tin might have some effect. If the steel alloy is different, presumably that might have an effect too, but I don't know that the wire is very much different from one string manufacturer to the next. There are only a few sources for this kind of wire worldwide, as I understand it. I don't know that any string manufacturers are drawing their own wire or manufacturing their own allies.

  4. #3

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    I have never heard any difference, but I change out the e and b for heavier (13, 17). I dont like the brass powdered because it sticks to the fingers

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    There are only a few sources for this kind of wire worldwide, as I understand it. I don't know that any string manufacturers are drawing their own wire or manufacturing their own allies.
    That's also what I thought, but I've read posts that claim the contrary here. And d'Addario do own a plant in which they produce their own wire since not that long ago, right in NY (hence the NYXL name). I'd be willing to order some of those ... but if they just sound the same I could just as well stick with brass-plated trebles ... for the looks of them.

    I don't play electric so I'd be thrilled to try bronze strings some time, if anyone knows where to get them. Or carbon fluor at the appropriate tension, if I can find anyone who can sell me a few lengths of the right Seaguar line.

  6. #5

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    Piano wire is the general term for the kind of drawn wire used for strings. It’s also an industrial staple used for many things from springs to fastening and bundling. It does come in different alloys, and the most common ones are heat treated in various ways for strength. It’s difficult to imagine that heat treatment to different specs doesn’t affect something about which we care - tone, playability, responsiveness etc. But I’ve never been able to find out what specific wire is used in any guitar string.

    Here’s a link to the piano wire page of the McMaster-Carr website. You can see multiple alloys with different characteristics listed, and they’re only one jobber. Mapes has been making piano wire for 100 years in Tennessee, and they don’t seem to disclose what specific alloy(s), processes etc are used. Here’s an interesting article about the evolution of piano strings.

  7. #6

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    I don't hear any difference. Different gauges, yes; different guitars, yes; different string brands, no. But I'm just one person, and I haven't tried every brand available. My hearing might not be as good as someone else's. I can't say definitively that there is no sonic difference between plain steel strings, just that I can't hear any.

  8. #7

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    Just spitballin', here. High frequency content (brightness) in a plain string may conceiveably be affected by alloy content, changing the flexibility of the string, but it seems pretty micro, to me. To get less brightness, go thicker, or older, or both. I had a friend who swore by old, dead strings for the tone he liked in an acoustic guitar. Old means fatigued, as well, so I'd stick with thicker. My 1/50 USD on this.

    As a general rule, I only change string sets when one breaks, or becomes difficult to tune, or I just feel fiddly. Thus my strings at a given time are broken in, not jangly, and have a fairly consistent tone. Breaking strings onstage for me has historically been extremely rare, save for a spell in '87 when I couldn't keep a D-string on for more than three tunes. I switched to Dean Markleys and that stopped. Since then I've used many, many brands and broken two, maybe three strings since then. It was a bad batch, apparently.

  9. #8

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    Annoyingly I can't go thicker than what I'm using currently, fingers won't let me.

    I think I mentioned this before: Ernie Ball use maraging steel core wire in the wound strings of certain sets, claiming it gives a warmer tone. This is a different alloy indeed so maybe there's substance to their claim, but why wouldn't they use it for the plain trebles too in that case...
    I'd try to extract the cores if I knew which strings to unwrap ... and didn't already know how much work *that* is (tried to recuperate the silver from a violin string wrap... once )

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    I have never heard any difference, but I change out the e and b for heavier (13, 17).
    Agree, and I do the same...fatter trebles equal fatter tone.

  11. #10

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    This is an interesting question, I’ve never paid much attention! I’m super picky about finding the best stings for each particular guitar but never really listened for differences in the plain ones. I’ll have to check this out.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Agree, and I do the same...fatter trebles equal fatter tone.
    I agree, and I disagree at the same time ... I think. Specifically, I think it really depends on your picking. Very light strings + light picking technique can be a very thick tone, but heavier picking can induce more fretting out and "plinkiness" in the unwound strings' tone. So if you use the same heavy picking technique on two guitars strung differently, the thinner string will seem thinner. My semi-hollow is strung 10-46 rounds, and I tend to pick more lightly and go for more legato articulations with it. My archtop is currently strung with 12-52 flats, but with a 13 swapped in on the high E. I tend to pick harder on this guitar and do more staccato/alternate picking with it, which caused the 12 to kind of fret/plink out noticeably. The 13 fixes that. But in terms of actually frequency response and warmth/brightness, there's really not a whole lot of difference between the e-string tones of the two set-ups. Overall (to my perceptions, anyway) the big difference between the two gauges is note envelope and feel.

  13. #12

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    I just change strings depending how much use and gigging I do. Which use to be quite often in the past. But as a rule thicker strings always seem to last a bit longer. I am referring to plain wire and Round Wounds.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Agree, and I do the same...fatter trebles equal fatter tone.
    Yeah, and the higher tension is bit more bouncy and forgiving when finger picking

  15. #14

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    Optima Gold E and B. Nicely warmer to my ears. I find the 12/16 to equal in warmth a 13/17.
    IMHO, YMMV, etc.

  16. #15

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    I don't know about sounding warmer but the Just Strings bulk-pack plain steels resist rust a lot better than some other plain steels. The John Pearse plains are rusty right out of the pack so I throw them out for Just String plains. They have remained bright and shiny, and I live close to the sea.

  17. #16

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    A little embarrassed to admit this, but last year during one of my country's lockdowns, with a little too much time spent playing alone in a small room, and not enough with other people, I got a little obsessed with solving the problem of a particular telecaster that always sounded really scratchy on the top two (unwound) strings of the d'addarios I was using, and felt particularly unbalanced with the wound strings, no matter how I set the pickups.

    Bought a fair amount of string sets and even mixed and matched - for what's it's worth, I basically felt like unwound strings from different brands fell into two categories, and within each category the strings seemed interchangeable.

    D'Aaddario's unwound strings (tried 3 different types within the same gauge) and Martin's unwound strings (only tried the monels, since I use them for my archtop and always have a bunch on hand) both sounded and felt identical. Bright and stiff.

    Ernie ball, John Pearse, Rotosound, DR, Curt Mangan... And probably something else I am forgetting also all sounded identical to each other but seemed slightly mellower in sound and feel than the D'Aaddario's and Martin. Again, if not obvious, I am only talking about the unwound strings.

    Honestly ... It was a bit of a cabin fever induced wild goose chase, though now I don't feel like I need to try any new strings for a long time . Your mileage may vary, and all that. And who knows if I'd feel the same if I did it again.

    I am still using the Martin Monels on my archtop, because they sound good and balanced to me on that guitar, and they are cheap and easily available.

    And I am now using the John Pearse on that Tele because ... They sound good and balanced to me on that guitar, and they are cheap and easily available .

  18. #17

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    I just tried a set of LaBella Black Tapes, and I think the plains sound warmer, but my ears could be playing tricks on me, or maybe I changed my settings.

  19. #18

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    I've got a George Benson's TI set on a guitar with a same-sized D'Addario second string on a guitar right now and can't hear a difference. Tonally seamless transition from the TI first string to the D'Addario second string.

  20. #19

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    I like the Rogue plain strings from Guitar Center. Mostly for the price, but they sound as good to me as any others, better than some. I have TI JS112 sets on some guitars, because I wanted to see what the buzz was about. They're okay, but the .012 is plinky. It's sort of okay on my Benedetto, but on the solid carved archtops not so good. The Rogue is better. Even better is a Rogue .013. The TI plain .013 might sound okay, but the Rogues have much better bang for the buck. I still have the TI B strings installed, and they're okay, nothing special as the brass wears off, but okay. I prefer the .012 sets from any manufacturer, but I like the .013 e. For the price, I don't think the Rogues can be beat. I have some D'Addario plain singles, and some others, but I can't tell the difference between the name brands and the Rogues.

  21. #20

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    I find the .012 and .016 that come with a set of .012 Thomastiks feel lighter than the equivalent .012 and .016 Elixir strings.

    On my guitars I swap out the E and B of the TI strings with Elixirs. The Elixir plain strings last much longer and feel super slick under the fingers. Generally I bump the gauge up to 0.013 and 0.017 too, but one of my guitars seems to sound better with 0.012 and 0.016.

    I'm not convinced I hear a difference in tone between the TIs and Elixir plains, but there is a big difference in longevity and a subtle difference in tension, even in the same gauge.

  22. #21

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    The 2 kinds of Daddarios sound differently from each other - the xls and nyxls so I'd assume that other brands would be different too.

  23. #22

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    "D’Angelico’s Electrozinc string is the truest tribute to Bethanized™ Steel since the original."

    seems to be not from the global common supply chain, instead a custom thing.

    I do not know if is this apply to the B, E strings too, but one for sure, I am using the 12s set since years, and in the round wound type nothing beats it. It is an upgrade to a guitar. (No flatwound unfortunatelly, so this case I go for TI)

    D'ANGELICO ELECTROZINC STRINGS - D'Angelico Guitars

    https://www.amazon.com/DAngelico-Electrozinc-Electric-Guitar-Strings/dp/B01N9EG85C

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by entresz
    I find the .012 and .016 that come with a set of .012 Thomastiks feel lighter than the equivalent .012 and .016 Elixir strings.
    From what I understand this is not an illusion, but the result of the fact that TI work with metric units; these are then converted to the imperial .01x gauges for labelling, rounding off the actual value to 2 digits. Their 12 gauge E string could thus be as "thin" as an 11.5 (I presume they would round 11.4 down to 11).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    The 2 kinds of Daddarios sound differently from each other - the xls and nyxls so I'd assume that other brands would be different too.
    Can you describe how they sound different - acoustically? Also, under what references does one find individual NYXL trebles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    "D’Angelico’s Electrozinc string is the truest tribute to Bethanized™ Steel since the original."[...]

    D'ANGELICO ELECTROZINC STRINGS - D'Angelico Guitars
    Made by d'Addario.

    Follow-up question: do heavier treble gauges wear the frets faster?

  25. #24

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    Looking at the individual TI strings available through my vendor I realise the AC016 Plectrum G string should be usable as a B string (it clocks in at 7.2kg vs. the 7.1kg of a plain wire 17 G string, so it should be a like a 17 gauge B string).

    Did anyone ever try this? It should sound great if it holds up to the tension, but I guess the winding will wear through pretty quickly...

  26. #25

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    Well, I just had to know, so I miked 2 ti jazz swing 0.12 strings and they both came out at 0.299 mm, so what they aim for is most probably 0.3 mm. Roughly 0.118 inch

    (For those so inlined, I used 1 tesa analog caliper, 1 0.001 mm digital micrometer, and 1 digital height gauge on a no name asian granite surface plate)