Same string gauge harder to bend on hollow body?

[buduranus2]

I picked up an unusual hollow body for a restaurant gig through a floorboard into a PA. It's very thin with a typical archtop tailpiece. I need to be able to switch between mellow chords and rock leads. I've noticed that there's more string tension on the hollow body than my solid bodies even though I'm using the same strings on all of them. Any ideas why?

[ArnoldSchoenberg]

I picked up an unusual hollow body for a restaurant gig through a floorboard into a PA. It's very thin with a typical archtop tailpiece. I need to be able to switch between mellow chords and rock leads. I've noticed that there's more string tension on the hollow body than my solid bodies even though I'm using the same strings on all of them. Any ideas why?

Scale length?

[buduranus2]

Scale length?

Nope. 24-3/4" on all of 'em.

[wzpgsr]

String tension is all over the place on my archtops, even with same scale-length and same string sets. There's a sweet spot for me that is bordering on almost too loose, as opposed to too stiff.

[rpjazzguitar]

If the string mass, pitch and vibrating length are the same, then the tension is the same.

It's the mass of the string, not the gauge, that matters. Different brands may have different mass for the same gauge. That can affect tension.

But, the way the string feels under your hand isn't dependent just on the string tension.

It also depends on the length of the non-vibrating part of the string. The more non-vibrating length, the softer the feel. That's because deflecting the string, (to fret or bend a note) involves stretching the string -- including the non-vibrating portion if it is allowed to stretch.
If the string is clamped in place at nut and bridge, then the rest of the string might as well be cut off and thrown away. But, if the string is allowed to move at the bridge and nut, then the non-vibrating portion stretches and makes the action feel softer.

For that reason, I prefer trapeze tailpieces.

Breakover angle at the bridge may impact how easily the string slides over the saddle and that probably affects the feel as well.

[buduranus2]

The more non-vibrating length, the softer the feel. That's because deflecting the string, (to fret or bend a note) involves stretching the string -- including the non-vibrating portion if it is allowed to stretch. If the string is clamped in place at nut and bridge, then the rest of the string might as well be cut off and thrown away. But, if the string is allowed to move at the bridge and nut, then the non-vibrating portion stretches and makes the action feel softer.

I don't know enough physics to have an opinion, but this is exactly the opposite of my experience.

[icr]

If the scale length is the same and string mass the same, and the pitch is the same, the tension has to be the same. Can't violate basic physical laws.

[rpjazzguitar]

If the scale length is the same and string mass the same, and the pitch is the same, the tension has to be the same. Can't violate basic physical laws.

That's true. If you don't stretch the string. But if you stretch it, the non-vibrating length comes into play.

Thought experiment: Imagine that the string was a mile long, with all but 25.5 inches behind the bridge. The tension of the string depends only on the vibrating length. But, what happens if you bend a note? The string stretches, including that almost-mile behind the bridge. So, you bend the string and it barely changes in pitch, because most of the stretch is in the non-vibrating length.

Now imagine that the string is clamped at the bridge, so there's no non-vibrating length. Bend the string the same distance and you'll hear the pitch change.

[John A.]

I picked up an unusual hollow body for a restaurant gig through a floorboard into a PA. It's very thin with a typical archtop tailpiece. I need to be able to switch between mellow chords and rock leads. I've noticed that there's more string tension on the hollow body than my solid bodies even though I'm using the same strings on all of them. Any ideas why?

Check for differences in action height and relief? Differences in fretboard radius, frets, or neck profile might contribute to a difference in feel or ease of playing that seems like different tension (though probably isn't)?

[entresz]

The frets could be part of this. If they're not polished up well, it's harder to bend.
Also, small frets mean you have to press that little bit harder.

I have two archtops, bother 25 1/2" scale, one has large (not quite jumbo) size frets, the other has very low/flat frets (ala fretless wonder Gibsons ), and the one with larger frets is far easier to play, including for bending.

[Filmosound 621]

if the nut slots aren't cut to the correct depth, the guitar is harder to play, despite all other things like scale lenght ect. being equal.

[hotpepper01]

The difference is a matter of both material properties and the length of the string between both ends, String length is roughly between tuner peg and ball end. On the material side it is the Elasticity Modulus (E) of the material. At bending, the string becomes temporarily a tiny bit longer between both ends. What you feel is the force you need to bend to a certain pitch. The "stiffer"the material is, the more force is required. The more elastic the material is, the lesser force is required. The longer the string length between firm ends. the less force is required. The shorter the length between both ends, the more for is required. It is just mechanical engineering.

[DRS]

I picked up an unusual hollow body for a restaurant gig through a floorboard into a PA. It's very thin with a typical archtop tailpiece. I need to be able to switch between mellow chords and rock leads. I've noticed that there's more string tension on the hollow body than my solid bodies even though I'm using the same strings on all of them. Any ideas why?

Don't overthink it. Things are as they are.
Put lighter strings on the archtop so it's comfy to bend. Or practice and build more hand strength. I'd opt for the former. Easier. Faster.

[Gabor]

That's true. If you don't stretch the string. But if you stretch it, the non-vibrating length comes into play.

Thought experiment: Imagine that the string was a mile long, with all but 25.5 inches behind the bridge. The tension of the string depends only on the vibrating length. But, what happens if you bend a note? The string stretches, including that almost-mile behind the bridge. So, you bend the string and it barely changes in pitch, because most of the stretch is in the non-vibrating length.

Now imagine that the string is clamped at the bridge, so there's no non-vibrating length. Bend the string the same distance and you'll hear the pitch change.

All true ...however... it is true only to the distance, not the pitch. I mean bend to "up" 2 cm is easier when the non vibrating length is bigger. However bend to a particular pitch (say half note) is _exactly_ the same, because you must increase the tension to the exactly the same value, regardless the non vibrating length.

going forward on this path, if the non vibrating part is bigger, that means to achieve a half not bend you must bend to a bigger distance, and someone can feel, that it is harder to achieve is bending goal (the pitch), despite, that regardless the non vibrating length that is exactly the same tension increase.

Given the the archtops have way bigger non vibrating length compared to a Les Paul or Tele, this could be the reason of harder to bend feeling

[John A.]

That's true. If you don't stretch the string. But if you stretch it, the non-vibrating length comes into play.

Thought experiment: Imagine that the string was a mile long, with all but 25.5 inches behind the bridge. The tension of the string depends only on the vibrating length. But, what happens if you bend a note? The string stretches, including that almost-mile behind the bridge. So, you bend the string and it barely changes in pitch, because most of the stretch is in the non-vibrating length.

Now imagine that the string is clamped at the bridge, so there's no non-vibrating length. Bend the string the same distance and you'll hear the pitch change.

Whether and/or how much the length behind the bridge depends on friction at the bridge saddle, no? It seems to that would have to be overcome (and downforce, too) by the bending/fretting force in order for the behind-the-bridge portion to get stretched. I've played my semi with a trapeze tailpiece and a 335 with a stop tailpiece, both strung with the same gauge and brand of strings, side by side countless times. Subjectively I don't sense any noticeable difference in ease of bending, which makes me skeptical of your hypothesis. But this sort of comparison and subjectivity (either way) is probably not a reliable indicator of actual involved. To know the answer, I think there would have to be controlled experiment and measurement.

[rpjazzguitar]

Whether and/or how much the length behind the bridge depends on friction at the bridge saddle, no? It seems to that would have to be overcome (and downforce, too) by the bending/fretting force in order for the behind-the-bridge portion to get stretched. I've played my semi with a trapeze tailpiece and a 335 with a stop tailpiece, both strung with the same gauge and brand of strings, side by side countless times. Subjectively I don't sense any noticeable difference in ease of bending, which makes me skeptical of your hypothesis. But this sort of comparison and subjectivity (either way) is probably not a reliable indicator of actual involved. To know the answer, I think there would have to be controlled experiment and measurement.

Posters have pointed out several factors that can influence feel. Nut slot depth, for example. I think overall shape of the neck matters too. If the guitar fits your hand better, differences in stiffness may be less noticeable.

My experience has been that trapeze tailpieces have seemed to have softer action. But, it's possible that the actual difference was due to a different factor. I've only had experience with a couple of guitars and I've never done a blindfold test. So, I agree, a controlled experiment would be needed. Things come up where the physics suggests something, but, even though that something is real, it may not be noticeable in daily life.

[citizenk74]

It occurs to me that with a typical archtop, the neck and strings are physically further away from your body that when you play, for example, a Strat. All the leverage points are different. It takes the same amount of force, deployed through a different, and less efficient system of body levers. It just feels stiffer, because the angles are a bit awkward. Practice should take up some of the slack.

[sgosnell]

There are lots of factors in play here. Neck relief, action height, total string length, nut and saddle friction, angle of the player's arms and body, all have some effect. A typical archtop should have a softer feel than a typical solid-body, because the total string length is greater. But that extra string length makes bending to the same pitch more difficult on an archtop, because the string has to be moved further. If you're used to a solid-body an archtop is going to feel very different, and the difference can lead to the perception of harder to play and bend notes. Everyone's perceptions are different, so if the solid-body feels easier to you, then your perception is valid for you.

[KirkP]

A trapeze tailpiece adds a length of non-vibrating string, increasing the total string length compare to a stop tailpiece. This means you must bend the string a greater distance to get the same increase in tension. Frequency of vibration is proportional to string tension. The requirement to bend it farther makes bending feel more difficult. After all, Physics 101 says work = force X distance!

Therefore, while tailpieces do not increase string tension, they do increase the effort when bending strings.

Edit: I’ve realized the above argument may have a flaw, since the force that the finger is pushing against should drop as the string length increases, which would tend to *reduce* the amount of work required. Nevertheless, with a trapeze tailpiece the string still needs to travel further across the fret to get the same change in frequency as a stop tailpiece, and you are also working against the friction of the fretboard, so I still think more work would be involved.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think overall shape of the neck matters too. If the guitar fits your hand better, differences in stiffness may be less noticeable.

Another factor is whether and how you touch or hold the neck when bending a note (or adding vibrato). Some don’t touch the neck at all, some only have the thumb against it, and others have more of a grip. Some touch only the string they’re bending and others damp or hold additional strings. Each of these has a different sound and each takes a different form and level of effort.

It also matters how you bend. Clapton uses his entire forearm, BB used his wrist, and others use one or more fingers. Bending with the middle finger and an anchored hand is a lot easier than a pedal steel style double stop pinkie bend up to a 3rd on the B against a sustained 5th on the E1.

[Dennis D]

......Neck angle ???

[John A.]

A trapeze tailpiece adds a length of non-vibrating string, increasing the total string length compare to a stop tailpiece. This means you must bend the string a greater distance to get the same increase in tension. Frequency of vibration is proportional to string tension. The requirement to bend it farther makes bending feel more difficult. After all, Physics 101 says work = force X distance!

Therefore, while tailpieces do not increase string tension, they do increase the effort when bending strings.

Edit: I’ve realized the above argument may have a flaw, since the force that the finger is pushing against should drop as the string length increases, which would tend to *reduce* the amount of work required. Nevertheless, with a trapeze tailpiece the string still needs to travel further across the fret to get the same change in frequency as a stop tailpiece, and you are also working against the friction of the fretboard, so I still think more work would be involved.

Maybe the string does have to move further, but how much further, and how much difference does this actually make in the effort to bend?

As to fretboard friction, the degree to which this occurs varies with fret height and technique. Ordinarily, on a guitar with frets in good condition one's fingers don't touch the fretboard (they only touch the fret), unless one is really pressing the strings hard, which one does not do for all bends.

[KirkP]

Maybe the string does have to move further, but how much further, and how much difference does this actually make in the effort to bend?

As to fretboard friction, the degree to which this occurs varies with fret height and technique. Ordinarily, on a guitar with frets in good condition one's fingers don't touch the fretboard (they only touch the fret), unless one is really pressing the strings hard, which one does not do for all bends.

Those are valid points. But if the OP’s complaint is true and if the strings and scale length are identical, I can’t think of any other explanations. I don’t think neck angle or break angle over the bridge would effect string bending effort.

[whiskey02]

Last time I bent a string I had long, thick, luxurious hair. It was along time ago.

[Hammertone]

This thread is not about string tension.
It's about string compliance.