Tokai 2019 FA245 "ES-175"

[Jx30510]

(I took the pickguard off , I always do so)

After a pretty long ES175 quest, from the real thing offerings (just too expensive in the long run), Chinese options (Stanford Fatboy , Eastman T49), Ibanez "lawsuit" 2355 (didn't find a nice enough one to take the risk), I finally chose to go in the intermiadate route, not as expensive as Gibson (3500€ is just too much), but a little more "prestige" than the Chinese (that must also be very good)

So the Tokai FA245 arrived. In perfect shape, like new. The serial number makes me think it's from 2019. One owner before, it was on consignment in a Spanish shop.
I made the purchase on Reverb.
Very smooth buy, no problems (with all the recent threads on bad experience on line purchases, I was a bit nervous..)

The setup was way of, the bridge much too far from the neck, and therefore intonation was bad.
All notes at 12th fret where flat in comparison to the pinched 12th harmonics. That means the bridge is too far away from the neck..
The previous owner had put little pieces of tape under the two feet bridge as a reference. The guitar must have never been intonnated correctly?
The two feet rosewood bridge wasn't flush on the top.
The trussrod much too tight, so no neck relief.
All this made the guitar plinky, stiff and thin sounding out of the box.
I cannot know if this terrible setup was from Tokai or the first owner, but I would be surprised that a high end Tokai goes out the factory like that.

So the first playing experience was not that good but I knew the guitar needed immediately a global setup.

The neck is great, 43mm nut and a deep U profile, I love it.
The woods are superb. The wood grain on the mahogany neck is impressive, almost 3 dimensial at places.
The rosewood on the fretboard has lovely black to brown strains, and the grain is very tight.
The pickups sound great, no complaints there, maybe brighter than Classic 57, but not a bad thing.. The Tone knobs work very well for that, as the electronics are very high quality (CTS pots, Switchcraft selector, orange Sprague capacitors).
The tuners seem to have a high ratio and are very precise. The bone nut (cow) is masterfully cut. No "ping" at all when tuning, which is pretty rare in my experience.

The Gotoh TOM bridge has brass saddles. First time I see this. Saddles are very well cut to match the strings.
The tailpiece is a little off, the Zigzag a bit different from Gibson.
I don't care, and I don't like this style of tailpiece anyway . I will maybe change it. But it's well made and of quality components.

For the setup

I had a spare ebony one piece bridge base. I spent a couple of hours to sand it perfectly flush with the top.

I put roundwounds 11-48 nickel wound strings, adjusted the neck relief with a very light bow, the string at the seventh fret barely touching it.

I adjusted the intonnation, very easily, to be perfect (I mean dead on perfect) by moving the bridge a good centimeter towards the neck from where it initially was.

After precise little further adjustments, the guitar plays perfectly, one of the best playability I've ever encountered. It reminds me of an Ibanez Gb10 in that department, typical high end Japanese work.

I'm delighted with this ES175 clone, it is much better than an Epiphone ES175 Premium I had. The thunk is definitely there, beautiful low end on the bass strings, and the guitar really sings on the high register, inspiring single notes that sustain and are quite hypnotizing.

I really have the feeling that I'm discovering why the Es175 is so iconic.

This guitar is a real joy to play, I get completely lost just letting chords ring and add light melodies on top.

The setup was VERY important to arrive to the final result. I have a good experience doing it, but I imagine that someone getting the guitar without a good setup would be less than overwhelmed.

And by the way, to respond to Archtop Heaven's comment on the lacquer in another post. Saying it was poly finish, with a coat of lacquer on top.
Tokai clearly advertise the Premium range has nitrocellulose finish..

I 'm not sure about it. The guitar is beautifully finished, with a vintage brownish natural sheen, but it does not smell like your typical Gibson nitrocellulose finish (think vanilla).
My 10 year old daughter loves the nitrocellulose smell. Each time I bring a new guitar home, she rushes when I open the case "does this one smell vanilla?"

Well, the Tokai didn't pass "that" test.

Overall I recommend Tokai Premium instruments. On par with Ibanez Prestige or Gibson in my experience.

[Gitterbug]

Congrats! Great to see the guitar in expert hands. As for the finish, I don't think nitro on poly is doable, as its solvent (thinner) would cause the underlying coat to boil. Gibson's nitro must be somehow perfumed (perhaps it's the case lining). In my aeromodeling decades I used loads of nitro dope and, when dry and my head sober again, no scent. The same with today's nitro varnish, which I use as a primer under waterborne PU parquet varnish on open-grain woods like okoumé. Well into the 1960s nitro was the predominant varnish on furniture, and our homes did not smell like a Gibson guitar.

Enjoy your find and keep us posted on how it fares. Of course, some people would string it with .12 flatwounds, resulting in a darker, more barking tone.

EDIT: I have educated myself on the Nitro over Poly issue. Looks like it can be done and has been done a lot. Yet, better not try it at home!

[Stringswinger]

She is a beauty. May she inspire your playing for many years to come.

BTW, different era Gibsons have a different Nitro smell. Perhaps your Tokai is Nitro after all?

[Durban]

I see they are made in Japan, from what i see browsing they look great.

I had the Eastman AR371 £599 about 2012 ish no longer that price the 1st frets were loose had to be reglued 2nd was also problematic , i returned to shop for refund.

the only good thing about the Eastman THEN was the price and lightweight, necks were wider nothing like 175/165.

Enjoy it

[whiskey02]

Looks great. I suggest you put a toothbrush on the tailpiece and play it 12 hours per day!
Enjoy.

[Strbender]

She's a beauty. Enjoy

[citizenk74]

Wow! You really did well! The instrument appears to be a winner. The ES-175 format is in my opinion well-nigh un-beatable. I find it comfortable in the ergonomic aspect and practical in that everything I need is right under my fingers. Congratulations, and play it in good health!

[itsmyname]

what a nice guitar !

[Gitterbug]

PS In my opinion, the zig-zag tailpiece is one of the unique charms of the ES-175. I fell in love with it as a 13-year kid in 1960, when I saw an ES-175 hanging next to another splendid archtop, a Levin, at Musiikki Fazer in Helsinki. In 1962, Jimmy Giuffre came to Helsinki and I hoped to see Jim Hall, who was with the original trio (of "The Train And The River" fame.) What a disappointment: no Jim Hall, a Gibson guitar and amp yes but no cutaway, and no zig-zag tailpiece. I've tried to find out who the young guitarist was, to no avail.

[Spook410]

I think your logic is spot on. Gibson ES175's have left the building in terms of value. Tokai is probably as good as it gets as an alternative. I would like to get one of these when one comes up in the states. Or when the weather is better for shipping from Japan. Please give a check in after you've had it for awhile.

[Gitfiddler]

[QUOTE=Jx30510;1178930]

Congratulations on scoring a beautiful Tokai FA245! Play it in good health.

It looks very much like my '89 ES175, including its Mahogany back/sides. (see below and avatar).

[Jx30510]

Thanks for all the comments. I've been playing it more than looking at my laptop, which says something.

It's just a great instrument. A good freind, crazy about guitars, buys and sells a lot of them, tried it yesterday, wants to buy it from me.

No question, it's a keeper.

The finish is lacquer, no doubt.

[Jx30510]

I haven't told about the cost, which is important,. 2000€. I sold 2 guitars to fund the purchase, and very happy with my decision.
I've had a lot of guitars, and I can tell when one is is a good one.
This one is there, without a doubt.
Maybe the best

[Average Joe]

That's a beauty, congratulations

[Doug B]

Is there a Canadian distributor for the Tokai FA245?

Thanks

Doug

[citizenk74]

what a nice guitar !

[Archie]

I haven't told about the cost, which is important,. 2000€. I sold 2 guitars to fund the purchase, and very happy with my decision.
I've had a lot of guitars, and I can tell when one is is a good one.
This one is there, without a doubt.
Maybe the best

Glad to hear you're enjoying the guitar JX. Happy NGD! They are flawlessly built.

[Spook410]

You know.. it's getting harder and quite a bit more expensive to acquire these in the states. Looked into it and was kind of surprised.

[Jx30510]

After a few days I 'm wondering if I' m not going to go a step up on the string gauge, 12-50, with wound G.It's so easy to play I'm feeling the actual 11-48 are a bit slinky, and the change would be an upgrade.Not sure about flatwounds, I've tried several times and don't bond with them.Maybe the Rich Severson string choice would be good. Light on the bass strings (48 I think) and heavy on the E and B (13 and..?) I will search in his videos.

[Archie]

After a few days I 'm wondering if I' m not going to go a step up on the string gauge, 12-50, with wound G.It's so easy to play I'm feeling the actual 11-48 are a bit slinky, and the change would be an upgrade.Not sure about flatwounds, I've tried several times and don't bond with them.Maybe the Rich Severson string choice would be good. Light on the bass strings (48 I think) and heavy on the E and B (13 and..?) I will search in his videos.

I've found half wounds to be a refreshing change from flats. They have some bite but they don't have a lot of the brightness, that comes with round wounds.

Heavier treble strings can work but you will likely have to adjust the pickup to match the increased volume and you will find they have a slightly different feel, and sustain rate. Personally I avoid them but many top players and such do chose this options as it helps bias the tone to their suiting.

[frail]

This is such a beautiful guitar very glad that you enjoy it.
Are the pickups stock? Did you measure their resistance?

[citizenk74]

This is such a beautiful guitar very glad that you enjoy it.
Are the pickups stock? Did you measure their resistance?

[BiscoDrew]

That's a looker for sure. I'd love to get the chance to play one of these and see how it really feels under hand.

[Jx30510]

Thanks for the comments.
Yes after a few weeks I'm really enjoying it. I'm still tweaking it.

What I've discovered lately is that the rosewood bridge, which I initially thought was badly adjusted to the top (and that surprised me regarding the high level of quality of the guitar) had been fit backwards by the previous owner!

I was wondering if the original two feet bridge base, ligther than the one foot ebony bridge base I had adjusted, would make a difference.
So I was ready to sand the original one.. it had just been mounted backwards ?. Wonder I didn't figure this the first day.

Well the rosewood bridge works better for me, it seems to enhance the acoustic voice of the guitar.
Less wood, lighter, two feet vs one feet? I don't know exactly but I prefer the original one after a few tries.

Regarding the pickups, I'm on the fence of trying to put a set of Gibson Classic 57.

The Tokai Vintage MK2 are low output Alnico 5 that measure 7.2 and 7.8 neck and bridge.

I find them a bit trebly. I experimented with pickup height extensively, and set them quite low from the strings.

The tone is very clear and precise, but I'm not sure they transmit the acoustic voice very much.

Since the Gibson 57 are Alnico 2, I've read a bit about the differenceswith Alnico 5 and it seems A2's are warmer?

I've also got SD Seth Lovers. All these pickups (57's ans Seth Lovers) are already set in other guitars, and since I don't want to butcher them I'll have to make a decision before swapping them.

But I tend to go towards the Classic 57.s, which are what traditionally the Es175 originally have.

And I really like the classic 57.

Maybe an advice in pickups that really work well with the Es175 design?

I find the Tokai has a bright voice, lightly acoustic. I would like to bring it to a more smokey, electric tone.

[IanW]

Hey, I have the same! Mine is a Tokai FA-235, which I understand is because they name the models according to price in Japanese Yen and rename them when there's a price hike. (FA-235 = 235,000JPY)

You don't see them for sale in the USA much, and I consider myself lucky to have picked up this one for $1500 last July. There's some nice figuring on the top, it plays amazingly easy (despite the fact that I'm a newbie to jazz and not used to 12 gauge flatwounds), and the previous owner installed a rosewood saddle.