The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Wow. Seems prices for all Gibson archtops are going up, both vintage and used. Here's what is currently available in the Netherlands on "Marktplaats" for Gibson ES 175.

    1987 Gibson ES 175 4300 euro
    1995 Gibson ES 175 4500 euro
    1956 Gibson ES 175 6550 euro
    1960 Gibson ES 175 15,000 euro

    DB

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  3. #2

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    Thanks for alerting me to my little treasures (2014 ES-175 1959 VOS, 2007 Benedetto Bravo, 2011 Tal Farlow.)

  4. #3

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    Well they are not making them anymore or we don’t know when/if. Too fast for sure but see what happens in the financial markets. My guess is they will not go down in price. Others might but not Gibson. At some point though alternatives will be found. The unknown for me is young players under 25 may care less in future.

  5. #4

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    I think few of those guitars will actually sell at those prices. It's just covid marketplace induced greed. It's not like anybody actually has to buy one of them or has to own one. It will work itself out I believe.

  6. #5

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    Gretsch guitars are becoming more popular and are selling like crazy, from what I've seen, having just bought 2 of them myself. Very reasonably-priced, well-made, and great-sounding guitars.

  7. #6

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    I've been eyeing ES 175 for about 6 months now, and the prices have increased insanely in the last two months or so. It's just crazy.
    I regret not making up my mind when I saw a few ones at 2500€ at the end of last summer.. Telling myself a better deal would show.
    Even the Epiphone Es 175 Premium asking price has reached over 1000€! I suspect the guys selling on Reverb are a bit responsable for all this. I watched the prices today, they have gone up since last week. A complete frenzy.

  8. #7

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    It definitely seems like prices for Gibsons, especially older, well-crafted instruments, are going up and fast.

    I guess it can go two ways: Someday vintage Gibson archtops will be either
    (1) Prized and valued something like Stradavarius violins. Maybe not at that level, but let's say widely considered to be something rare and beautiful and extremely valuable.
    (2) Discarded in so many trash heaps and thrift shops like the residue of the accordion craze of the first half of the 20th century

    I feel more like the first option. I think they are special. I hope to see my 1944 L7 turn 100 years old. I'll play happy birthday on it all day long, fingers willing at that age

    But the accordion players probably felt the same.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    Wow. Seems prices for all Gibson archtops are going up, both vintage and used. Here's what is currently available in the Netherlands on "Marktplaats" for Gibson ES 175.

    1987 Gibson ES 175 4300 euro
    1995 Gibson ES 175 4500 euro
    1956 Gibson ES 175 6550 euro
    1960 Gibson ES 175 15,000 euro

    DB
    I was looking for 175-like objects late 2020 (wound up with a Seventy-Seven), and been doing a bit of window shopping in general, so I have some awareness of where the prices have been going. Prices on Reverb look about 25% higher than back then for 175's. There are lots of recent ones with asking prices over $4500 (some are a lot more) that would have listed for maybe $3500 then. Archtops in general seem to have gone up considerably from when I was in the market in late 2020, though Gibsons seem to have risen the most. I'm guessing that some of the non-Gibsons will come down a bit when the economy overall gets a bit more normal, but unless Gibson starts making archtops again I doubt prices for used ones will come down much.

  10. #9

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    The short answer is no neither gibson nor heritage will ever produce the archtop models again that we love so much. They’re very comfortable making 335 and Les Paul type guitars and turning part of their factories into hard rock hotel tourist destinations,

    knowing that if someone wants to buy a Gibson or heritage archtop they have to buy on the used market thus driving up the prices. i’m very happy that I grabbed all the stuff that I did in the last couple years and if I wanna get another really great Gibson style arch top I’ll look for a Mark Campellone every time.

    Big

  11. #10

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    Gibson archtops will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no Gibson archtops (with apologies to the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers ).

    Money depreciates. Gibson archtops appreciate. Pretty soon, a fret job will cost more than a 175 did 30 years ago.

  12. #11

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    Being a non-American and living in a tiny 3rd world country, I have no idea what's going on in the world economy. So is everyone saying here that this is NOT a good time to be buying gear online? I DID notice a very high price for some of the amps and guitars I've been looking at, and the ones that I did buy. I paid over $800 for a Gibson BR-6 amp when only 5 years ago they sold for around $400. I paid a bit over $900 for a Epiphone Emperor Regent, when apparently a few years back they were going for around $600. Others being sold online were going for over $1000. I see Gibsonette amps going online for around $800, and even though I got a nice discount from $900 -> $575 + shipping and tax, looking at prices years ago, I feel like I've been overpaying for everything but I sucked it up to scarcity.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat
    It definitely seems like prices for Gibsons, especially older, well-crafted instruments, are going up and fast.

    I guess it can go two ways: Someday vintage Gibson archtops will be either
    (1) Prized and valued something like Stradavarius violins. Maybe not at that level, but let's say widely considered to be something rare and beautiful and extremely valuable.
    (2) Discarded in so many trash heaps and thrift shops like the residue of the accordion craze of the first half of the 20th century

    I feel more like the first option. I think they are special. I hope to see my 1944 L7 turn 100 years old. I'll play happy birthday on it all day long, fingers willing at that age

    But the accordion players probably felt the same.
    It depends on hedge funds stepping in but the reality is, over the next 20 years, more vintage Gibson's will be coming on the market to fewer buyers than at any time in history but that could be short sighted. If China gets a taste for older American products, it's going to be a frenzy.
    Gen X seem to be wealthier than the Boomers and they are buying up a lot of the remaining used stock but can they buy up all the stock, that will hit the market over the next 20 years?
    I doubt Millennials or Gen Z have any real interest and since they are half the size of Gen X, the frenzy may stop with them?
    Of course the prices will always go up but there might be a switch from a sellers to a buyers market over the medium term.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    It depends on hedge funds stepping in but the reality is, over the next 20 years, more vintage Gibson's will be coming on the market to fewer buyers than at any time in history but that could be short sighted. If China gets a taste for older American products, it's going to be a frenzy.
    It's also true that Gen X are wealthier than the Boomers and they are buying up a lot of the remaining used stock but can they buy up all the stock, that will hit the market over the next 20 years?
    I doubt Millennials or Gen Z have any real interest and since they are half the size of Gen X, the frenzy may stop with them?
    Some major guitar dealers are not experiencing what you describe at all. Millennials appear to be buying more guitars than Gen X ever did and Gen Z is just getting started.

    Also, a lot of things you’re claiming seem to not be based on real numbers. One example follows.


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
    Some major guitar dealers are not experiencing what you describe at all. Millennials appear to be buying more guitars than Gen X ever did and Gen Z is just getting started.
    I just looked over the stats of population growth and in Europe, Zoomers are around 14 million to 19 million of Gen X.
    In the US it's roughly even.
    That means immigration into the US is stopping the inverted pyramid we see in Europe.

    It seems in the US particularly, there is plenty of Millennials and Zoomers to go around.

    Edit** sorry I just read your attachments whilst writing my response. Yes I'm guilty of being Euro centric and lazy. I watched a YouTube video talking about population in the UK and they claimed that Gen Z was half the size of Gen X. Looking into it, that's not true. They are more like 2/3 the size.
    The US it's a tonally different story.
    In world figures there is a huge population growth in Africa and parts of Asia for millennials and Zoomers but I wasn't counting them as being part of an Archtop collectors market, although there is no reason why they couldn't be.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 01-25-2022 at 09:57 PM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I just looked over the stats of population growth and in Europe, Zoomers are around 14 million to 19 million of Gen X.
    In the US it's roughly even.
    That means immigration into the US is stopping the inverted pyramid we see in Europe.

    It seems in the US particularly, there is plenty of Millennials and Zoomers to go around.

    Edit** sorry I just read your attachments whilst writing my response. Yes I'm guilty of being Euro centric and lazy. I watched a YouTube video talking about population in the UK and they claimed that Gen Z was half the size of Gen X. Looking into it, that's not true. They are more like 2/3 the size.
    Fair enough, I usually only see US numbers. BUT, in the the US, Gen X is the smallest generation population-wise. Both Millennials and Gen Z are larger in numbers. Enough Boomers have left us at this point that Millennials have become the most numerous generation.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
    Fair enough, I usually only see US numbers. BUT, in the the US, Gen X is the smallest generation population-wise. Both Millennials and Gen Z are larger in numbers. Enough Boomers have left us at this point that Millennials have become the most numerous generation.
    I think mass immigration into the US has inverted the pyramid between Gen X and Millennials. In theory with everything being equal, you would expect to see an inverted pyramid, as living standards and life expectancy goes up, birth rates generally go down.

    Certainly seems to be the trend here in Europe and I suspect the US.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I think mass immigration into the US has inverted the pyramid between Gen X and Millennials. In theory with everything being equal, you would expect to see an inverted pyramid, as living standards and life expectancy goes up, birth rates generally go down.

    Certainly seems to be the trend here in Europe and I suspect the US.
    Gen X was just small in the US from the beginning. Because of cultural differences trends that have applied to birth rates in Europe have not tended to apply in the US until fairly recently. It’s a pretty complex topic that goes beyond just standard of living.

  19. #18

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    I have Gen X bracing in some of my guitars. I found out here that Gen Millenial bracing is a lot cheaper according to your charts. I never was very good at reading this kind of chart, though.

  20. #19

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    [sweeping statement follows] Collecting is a boomer thing. Generation X is largely indifferent to collections, while Millennials and Zeds seem quite hostile to objects. Of course, one needs space to house a collection, which younger generations do not possess.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    [sweeping statement follows] Generation X is largely indifferent to collections,

    Sure, we don't have large stamp collections .. or beer label collections .. or toy train collections .. or ...


    But despite being a bedroom player I'm currently sitting at 9 guitars and still find that the optimal size of my collection is one bigger than the current one

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    [sweeping statement follows] Collecting is a boomer thing. Generation X is largely indifferent to collections, while Millennials and Zeds seem quite hostile to objects. Of course, one needs space to house a collection, which younger generations do not possess.
    There's a big difference between having a lot of stuff and/or being materialistic and collecting. The former may indeed present differently in different generations as a matter of culture and/or may reflect wealth inequality (I haven't seen evidence of that personally, but my window is small). I doubt the latter does present differently since it's about fulfilling obsessions, nostalgia, and membership in groups of like-minded people, much of which develops as people age. So if P% of "boomers" today are collectors of something or other and only P-N% of gen-x-ers are, give 'em time. I also think these generation lines are very blurry culturally and economically, and I don't think the generalizations about generations bear much scrutiny, especially for "boomers". The baby boom (in the US, anyway) lasted 20 years (by some measures even longer) and encompasses cohorts of people who grew up in very different worlds.

  23. #22

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    I know some Gen X cats with large guitar collections. And some Boomer minimalists who are happy with one or two guitars. No matter what generation one is, if disposable income appears, some will spend it on more guitars than they need.

  24. #23

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    When you are young and raising a family, the concept "Disposable Income" simply does not exist. Like john A, says, "Give 'em time."

  25. #24

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    When you were young and raising a family, the concept "Disposable Income" simply did not exist ACCORDING TO THE EX-WIFE.
    FIFY

    I've posted elsewhere young people aren't into collecting, least of all my kids. I collect guitars, records, vintage handtools, and duck decoys, at least I have quite a few of them.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    [sweeping statement follows] Collecting is a boomer thing. Generation X is largely indifferent to collections, while Millennials and Zeds seem quite hostile to objects. Of course, one needs space to house a collection, which younger generations do not possess.
    It's fair to say Gen Y and Gen z are not only the most indebted generations ever but they are also the ones with the hardest squeeze on living standards for some time.

    They also have a lot of ways to spend their money. NFT's, Crypto, Patreon's, Only Fans lol