The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    How many here are using 11 flatwounds on your Archtops? Are these too thin, in general? I'm more interested in fuller tone on a Super 400 than comfort level in playing. Recent luthier set up came with the advice not to go higher than 11's (neck tension). I trust him on nearly all his advice, except on this one, maybe.

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  3. #2

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    A Super 400 will easily take much heavier strings without damage. The only downside to heavier strings after a setup is the somewhat remote possibility that a truss rod adjustment might be needed, depending on the existing action and relief. Different archtops seem to like different strings. I never go lower than .012 sets, and seldom above .013. I've generally settled on .012 sets for most of my guitars, as the osteoarthritis in my hands progresses. I may substitute a .013 for the e string on some. I find that sets lighter than that just don't sound that good to my ears. I also detest plain 3rd strings, and refuse to deal with them. But string choice is highly subjective, and different people prefer different strings on different guitars. I suggest trying different strings and see which ones you prefer. You will not harm a Super 400 by using heavier strings. They will easily bear up under .014 sets, certainly .012 or .013. At most a truss rod tweak might be called for, but that's easily done and easily reversible, provided you do it a little at a time. I'm afraid my trust in a technician who claimed different would be reduced.

  4. #3

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    There could be a few factors why the luthier advised against it - lack of truss rod adjustment range, lightweight build, structural issues.

    I had 2 guitars where I've ran out of truss rod thread to get the neck as straight as I like, this supposedly can be dealt with washers. I have an acoustic that is very delicate so I keep it in Eb with 012 strings.

  5. #4

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    That's a tough question to answer. Your calling a set of strings 11s but .011 is only one string what is the rest of the set like? What are the tensions like. 11s can have the tension of 12s depending on the brand, and construction method. Unless there is some problem with your guitar, it's made to handle pretty much any gauge string you want to use. Adjustments may be necessary, but it would be fine. As to the sound usually the larger the gauge the fuller tone so in the end that would have to be your call.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomvwash
    How many here are using 11 flatwounds on your Archtops? Are these too thin, in general? I'm more interested in fuller tone on a Super 400 than comfort level in playing. Recent luthier set up came with the advice not to go higher than 11's (neck tension). I trust him on nearly all his advice, except on this one, maybe.
    ]
    Absolutely a Super 400 should handle 12's. I would ask the luthier why he did would not go higher. A .12 would be the lightest I would ever go but I use .13 on my D'a because it really brings out the best. I depends on the guitar but frankly a super 400 should take a .16 with no trouble or something is not just right. There are situations with individual guitar where this would not be a good idea but just in general.

  7. #6

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    An electric Super 400 is a different animal than an acoustic Super 400. The electric version can handle 11's though will generally sound fatter with heavier strings. The acoustic version needs at least a set of 12-53 strings to drive the top.

    Some guys use 10's on an electric Super 400 and get a pretty good sound. Pickups, amps and effects can make light strings sound good with the proper technique.

    If your luthier told you not to go any higher than the 11's, it is because his setup will not handle higher gauge strings well or there is some problem with the guitar that cannot handle the heavier strings. I would want to know his reasoning myself.

  8. #7

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    Without knowing if there is a structural issue with your S400, if it sounds a bit thin you can try going up a gauge on the first two strings to make them sound fuller. Those are the first ones that sound thin in my experience.

  9. #8

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    Before you take any advice here, Get the reason why from your tech.

  10. #9

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    Curious why someone would put 11’s on a Super 400. The reason to have such a big guitar is because of its acoustic value, so why not take advantage of that? I play an 18” and use 15-56 strings on it. As others have said, find out if there’s a problem with the neck that prohibits thicker strings.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Curious why someone would put 11’s on a Super 400. The reason to have such a big guitar is because of its acoustic value, so why not take advantage of that? I play an 18” and use 15-56 strings on it. As others have said, find out if there’s a problem with the neck that prohibits thicker strings.
    My mistake. To clarify, an electric 2015 Super 400 CES. Terrible answer from my luthier, who has otherwise demonstrated outstanding expertise with all of my guitars-he has a good reputation around here. "I have never seen 12's be a success." Really? Now that I recall, prior luthier in S. Florida also leaned toward 11's, without any clear reasoning. Maybe it's just the Flori-duh factor down here with Archtop guitars. That said, J. Satsuma gets a fine sound with 11's, in his YT posts:

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomvwash
    My mistake. To clarify, an electric 2015 Super 400 CES. Terrible answer from my luthier, who has otherwise demonstrated outstanding expertise with all of my guitars-he has a good reputation around here. "I have never seen 12's be a success." Really? Now that I recall, prior luthier in S. Florida also leaned toward 11's, without any clear reasoning. Maybe it's just the Flori-duh factor down here with Archtop guitars. That said, J. Satsuma gets a fine sound with 11's, in his YT posts:
    No offense to your luthier, but that is a ridiculous statement, 12's are very successful for archtop guitars, not to mention virtually every acoustic flat top I've ever owned!

    it sounds like maybe he has more experience with solid bodies, I could see that statement possibly on a Les Paul, or a 335, where the result could be too bassy or muddy, maybe. Just maybe.

    But 12's are actually on the light side on an archtop. IMHO, YMMV etc. 11's, I would feel the need for a lighter pick. It can work, but a different sound and feel.

    I would just try them and see. At your own risk of course, don't blame me if the neck snaps and the top explodes! (Just kidding, it should be no sweat on that guitar).

  13. #12

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    I use .011 x ~.050 on all my steel string guitars (my flattop and 17" archtop have Martin Retro .011s which go to .052). I like 'em. I don't find them thin sounding BUT they need a lighter touch than heavier strings; I prefer to play with a light touch, most often fingerstyle or hybrid. I also use low tension nylon strings, so that pretty much tells you what you need to know about my biases...

    I don't like feeling like I am fighting or wresting the guitar, so the action on my guitars is never over 4/64" and relief is as small as possible, but a lot of guitarists like to feel some resistance when they play. It's a matter of taste and preference.

    I'd be amazed if any Gibson archtop wouldn't take .013s, though. The acoustics were designed for that and the electrics usually have even heavier tops. I'd echo the advice to ask your luthier why he said that.

  14. #13

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    I had a guitar teacher years ago that used 11 set. He swore by them, and sounded great. That said, I've heard people using all gauges put forth terrific sounds. It's up to you. Doesn't much matter what anyone else thinks or says..

  15. #14

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    Kenny Burrell havd used 11s on his Super 400 for decades and we alll know how great he sounds. That said, a Super 400 should easily take heavier strings.

    Sendt fra min SM-T810 med Tapatalk

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldane
    Kenny Burrell havd used 11s on his Super 400 for decades and we alll know how great he sounds. That said, a Super 400 should easily take heavier strings.
    Interesting! Did not know this. Might explain what it is about his tone that never quite worked for me. I thought it was just a thinner pick or particularly delicate right hand technique.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldane
    Kenny Burrell havd used 11s on his Super 400 for decades and we alll know how great he sounds. That said, a Super 400 should easily take heavier strings.

    Sendt fra min SM-T810 med Tapatalk
    I did not know this either. I love Kenny's tone. Next string change, my Super 400 CES will get 11s.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by skiboyny
    I had a guitar teacher years ago that used 11 set. He swore by them, and sounded great. That said, I've heard people using all gauges put forth terrific sounds. It's up to you. Doesn't much matter what anyone else thinks or says..
    Only your ears and hands can be the judge. I have a GB10se and changed the flatwound 11-50 set down to 10-48 with a plain 3rd at .019 and I could not tell any change in tone to my ears and I like to occasionally bend so this works very well for me and I am completely satisfied.

    One issue is can your guitar handle heavier. Ya need a better answer from your luthier.

    The other issue is sound and feel and ONLY you can decide what you like.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I did not know this either. I love Kenny's tone. Next string change, my Super 400 CES will get 11s.
    Me too! Next string change, I’ll get a Super 400 CES!

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluejaybill
    Me too! Next string change, I’ll get a Super 400 CES!
    You are looking at a very expensive string change coming up.

  21. #20

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    I've started to use thomastik JS112 flatwound strings. They have .012 gauge, and they're great so far. Before that I've been using .011 on the previous archtop (I believe the last were "elixir" strings), and I'm using .010 gauge elixirs on my tele.

  22. #21

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    I have used Ti's for approximately 25 years +, and in recent years
    having 11's on all of my guitars, much easier on the hands and
    less tension, If Kenny Burrell employs them I guess they're good
    enough for most of us.

  23. #22

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    Not all guitars can handle this? I recently put on .014s on my cheap Ibanez AF-75. They feel and play good, but should I be worried? Oddly, the Thomastik-Infeld George Benson .014s feel way better on my fingers and on the guitar than the D'Addario .012 Chromes.

  24. #23

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    The cool thing about 11s is that especially for recording they can sound great, less bass and fit in a mix better.

  25. #24

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    I think this heavy string fetish is overrated, at least on many electric instruments. Thomastik 12’s are a bit lighter tension than D’Addarios, and should be fine instead of 11’s. I would however give it a shot and try 11’s as your luthier says. Could well be just the shiznit for that guitar. Why insist on heavy strings if it sounds great with lighter? Won’t know until you try.

    I had a guitar teacher who had 11’s on a vintage epi archtop and sounded amazing. I keep thomastik 12’s on my heritage 575.

    Then again, having tried all kinds on my heritage Eagle (acoustic version), thomastik 13’s sound great on that guitar. So it depends.

  26. #25

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    The original strings on good Gibson archtops in the pre Norlin days were seriously heavy by current standards. As I recall from my teen years reading the Gibson catalogs and dreaming of owning an L5 or S400 (I got a lightly used ‘60 175DN in ‘61), the original string sets on the big ES boxes were 13-54 or 14-57. I’m pretty sure that even my 175 came to me with 13-54 Sonomatics on it. I don’t recall what came on the acoustic archtops, but I don’t remember any generally available sets lighter than 12-50 in the 1950s, so there certainly weren’t many before then. Any decent archtop back then could handle whatever you put on it.

    I suppose that really heavy flats could cause progressive changes like top sag and neck bowing that would result in the need for repair and/or avoidance of heavy strings. But if a S400 of any vintage is in good shape, 13-57s should be no problem at all.

    Having said all that, I now use TI JS113s on my 16” ply and 17” solid archtops and am thrilled with the tone and feel.