The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I just bought a mint Princeton for my Eastman 603-15. I love these amps when I've played them with a Strat or tele. But, I can't seem to dial in a pleasing tone. Granted, I have one pickup, but every tone seems kinda dull or harsh, unless I have reverb/trem off and playing at 3. I'm not liking this sound for fingerstyle jazz (beginner/intermediate here).

    I've tried an AER and Roland Jazz chorus, didn't like the tones. Any other suggestion or amps to try? I may put this Fender on the seller's block again.

    Thanks.

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  3. #2

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    Do you have any examples of recordings with guitartone you like?

  4. #3

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    +10 to orri
    Start with what tone you want then work backwards to the amp and signal chain (to the pickup).
    Fender amps are not known for their warmth; not even gonna ask which it is.
    Good luck!
    jk

  5. #4

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    I would change the strings. Replacing an amp because the tone is not right for one guitar and one technique could be expensive and disappointing.

  6. #5

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    Princeton verbs have that extra grit (I believe due to the extra tube) and not much headroom as compared to a non-reverb Princeton. Some players (especially blues) love the Princeton verb... but out of all the fender tube amps I have played: the PV is close to the one I dislike the most. (I can not remember my experience with the fenders from the 80s (?) with the red knobs. I think I dislike those even more, however it has been a long time).

    You could give a non-verb Princeton a try. I am not sure if it will have enough headroom for you. I think of that as a totally different amp. One I own and love, the other I would never use for anything.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I would change the strings. Replacing an amp because the tone is not right for one guitar and one technique could be expensive and disappointing.
    I typically approach amps with a similar attitude. In that case the first thing I do is lower the volume hitting the front end. Sometimes that is enough to clean up the sound. Sometimes that leads to more hiss.

    If going in less hot, has a desired effect, the next step would be to replace the pre-amp tubes with lower gain tubes. (One can also change out power amp tubes and speakers also).

    My limited experience suggest that the Princeton Verb is a certain beast, that really does one thing well. I am not sure if you can turn it into an amp that has a solid sweet articulate clean tone with headroom.

    Then again I love my JC amps and certainly they are not uniformly loved. We are all different. I am sure there is some cat out there ripping bebop tunes through a JCM900 whole stack.

  8. #7

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    Did you find any amp that you liked with the Eastman 603? Could it be that you just don't like the electric sound of the Eastman?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by garthmoore
    I just bought a mint Princeton for my Eastman 603-15. I love these amps when I've played them with a Strat or tele. But, I can't seem to dial in a pleasing tone. Granted, I have one pickup, but every tone seems kinda dull or harsh, unless I have reverb/trem off and playing at 3. I'm not liking this sound for fingerstyle jazz (beginner/intermediate here).

    I've tried an AER and Roland Jazz chorus, didn't like the tones. Any other suggestion or amps to try? I may put this Fender on the seller's block again.

    Thanks.
    Buy a Two Rock and never look back.

    Or buy some of the reasonably inexpensive offerings from Quilter and a nice 12" cab. You'll like likely have a lot of fun and end up in the ball park you're looking for.
    I've never found a Fender amp that didn't sound harsh but we might not be talking about the same type of harshness. For me Fender amps have a ceramic like quality to the sound. Sort of like crockery being clanged together or scraped along the edges.
    I think people who have very sensitive hearing have this issue with most tube amps.

    A Tone King Imperial is also a fantastic amp, likely the second best tube amp ever made but to me, the Two Rock Studio is unsurpassed.

  10. #9

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    Try a different speaker? I like the Lil Buddy on my Princeton

  11. #10

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    This formula works best with Fender amps:

    Guitar: Turn up the volume and tone on your guitar to 10.

    Amp: Start with all of the controls set to zero. Start with the volume at the level you want.

    Gradually increase the treble and bass, one at a time until the tone sounds satisfactory to you.

    Guitar: Gradually decrease the volume down to 7 or 8. That will attenuate the high frequencies. Then gradually turn down the tone knob until the desired jazz tone is achieved.

    Fiddle around with the knobs on the amp and guitar. Each guitar will respond differently to your amp and your picking style. So enjoy knob-twisting. It never ends.

  12. #11

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    Input #2 will give you more headroom. I would try starting with all knobs a zero and gradually turn them up, one at a time until you get a tone you like. Backing off your guitar's output a tad won't hurt. Your guitar's tone control may be useful. My experience with rotary controls is that a degree or two of rotation may make a difference. Dialing in stuff is an art in itself. There's a reason pros have their own sound. It's what works for them - their gtr/amp/strings/touch combination, which is more-or-less unique to them. A JHS Haunting Mids pedal can transform any amp. Also


  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    Input #2 will give you more headroom. I would try starting with all knobs a zero and gradually turn them up, one at a time until you get a tone you like. Backing off your guitar's output a tad won't hurt. Your guitar's tone control may be useful. My experience with rotary controls is that a degree or two of rotation may make a difference. Dialing in stuff is an art in itself. There's a reason pros have their own sound. It's what works for them - their gtr/amp/strings/touch combination, which is more-or-less unique to them. A JHS Haunting Mids pedal can transform any amp. Also

    I feel a little sheepish here... I never noticed a difference between the two inputs on my PRRI. Probably due to playing at basically bedroom or sometimes, office after-hours levels of volume. At what level does the difference in headroom appear? What causes it?

  14. #13

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    Wait... you're playing a Princeton Reverb at 3, and it sounds "harsh"? Please define harsh. My PRRI (mine has a 12", but I have owned 2 others that had 10" speakers) were warm, clear, mid-scooped... but not harsh. If anything, most people find the PR the "sweetest" of the blackface line (Deluxe Reverb, Custom Vibrolux reverb, etc)

    I will also say, the OEM speaker in these (Jensen P10R) is crap, imo. It never sounded good to me. When I was doing 10" speakers, the Celestion Greenback 10 was my favorite. The P10R has very little headroom and a cheap, brittle tone to my ears...

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Wait... you're playing a Princeton Reverb at 3, and it sounds "harsh"? Please define harsh. My PRRI (mine has a 12", but I have owned 2 others that had 10" speakers) were warm, clear, mid-scooped... but not harsh. If anything, most people find the PR the "sweetest" of the blackface line (Deluxe Reverb, Custom Vibrolux reverb, etc)

    I will also say, the OEM speaker in these (Jensen P10R) is crap, imo. It never sounded good to me. When I was doing 10" speakers, the Celestion Greenback 10 was my favorite. The P10R has very little headroom and a cheap, brittle tone to my ears...
    I can't say enough good about the limited edition PPRI that one of the music companies produced, which I have. It has the 12" cannabis rex speaker, and I can't seem to drill into the sweetness of the tone enough. The more I play it, the better it sounds to me. Plus it has a curiously strong range, and it brings out the differences among my little tribe of guitars very nicely.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by garthmoore
    I just bought a mint Princeton for my Eastman 603-15. I love these amps when I've played them with a Strat or tele. But, I can't seem to dial in a pleasing tone. Granted, I have one pickup, but every tone seems kinda dull or harsh, unless I have reverb/trem off and playing at 3. I'm not liking this sound for fingerstyle jazz (beginner/intermediate here).
    There is really not enough information to propose a solution. There are also so many things that can be adjusted in the current setup to move the tone in the direction that you want. My first thought is always adjust what you have before you lay out even more money down the rabbit hole of chasing tone.

    The first question I have is what you mean by "harsh." Are you talking about there is some overdrive/distortion seeping into the tone? Or is it that the high end is too bright and hard?

    If it is just too bright, a quick discussion of the Fender amplifier tone stack is in order. These amps are designed with the mid range frequencies set very low (called "scooped mids"); this is what gives Fender amps their famous "sparkle." Leo Fender was a country music/Texas swing fan and the sound of his amps is biased in that direction. Starting with the bass and treble knobs set to zero will give you a nearly flat sound. Adding bass and treble judiciously from there will go a long way towards helping you shape your sound.

    If the sound is not clean and showing some distortion even at 3, it may be reasonable to look at the first preamp tube (V1). If there is a 12AX7 in there, that might explain it. Swapping in a preamp tube with less gain would sweeten the tone (12AU7, for example).

    Settings on the guitar are also important. I find that in the search for a jazz tone I almost never have the volume knob all the way up to 10 on the guitar. Typically it's at 7–8, as has already been mentioned; this knocks down a little bit of the high end frequencies and cleans up the tone by not hitting the V1 tube so hard. The tone knob is adjusted to taste. I find that on almost all electric guitars, there is a point in the tone knob sweep where the tone changes significantly in a very short amount of travel; I think of this as the "resonant frequency" (it probably isn't really that) and I like to be just on the bright side of that spot. Some people will find that to be unacceptably dull.

    Pickup height adjustment is also a factor, if that can be changed. This may be hard to do if it's a floating pickup but if the pickup is mounted into the top, lowering it away from the strings can help mellow out the sound a lot. Picking around the end of the fingerboard will also round out the sound.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I can't say enough good about the limited edition PPRI that one of the music companies produced, which I have. It has the 12" cannabis rex speaker, and I can't seem to drill into the sweetness of the tone enough. The more I play it, the better it sounds to me. Plus it has a curiously strong range, and it brings out the differences among my little tribe of guitars very nicely.
    Got the same one. It’s definitely a sweet one, agreed.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I feel a little sheepish here... I never noticed a difference between the two inputs on my PRRI. Probably due to playing at basically bedroom or sometimes, office after-hours levels of volume. At what level does the difference in headroom appear? What causes it?
    It provides more headroom by providing less gain. All the black panel Fenders I have had are like that. You'll never really notice the difference unless you are diming the amp, which in my younger days was pretty frequent. I figure using input 2 just gives you a little more dial all around. If you turned your Princeton up to where it started to break up and then switched from 1 to 2, it should clean up. Myself, I've spent half my life finding ways to introduce a certain toothy quality with extra sustain, so the "jazz" approach of clarity and brevity is relatively novel for me. Thank the powers for reverb!

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    There is really not enough information to propose a solution. There are also so many things that can be adjusted in the current setup to move the tone in the direction that you want. My first thought is always adjust what you have before you lay out even more money down the rabbit hole of chasing tone.

    The first question I have is what you mean by "harsh." Are you talking about there is some overdrive/distortion seeping into the tone? Or is it that the high end is too bright and hard?

    If it is just too bright, a quick discussion of the Fender amplifier tone stack is in order. These amps are designed with the mid range frequencies set very low (called "scooped mids"); this is what gives Fender amps their famous "sparkle." Leo Fender was a country music/Texas swing fan and the sound of his amps is biased in that direction. Starting with the bass and treble knobs set to zero will give you a nearly flat sound. Adding bass and treble judiciously from there will go a long way towards helping you shape your sound.

    If the sound is not clean and showing some distortion even at 3, it may be reasonable to look at the first preamp tube (V1). If there is a 12AX7 in there, that might explain it. Swapping in a preamp tube with less gain would sweeten the tone (12AU7, for example).

    Settings on the guitar are also important. I find that in the search for a jazz tone I almost never have the volume knob all the way up to 10 on the guitar. Typically it's at 7–8, as has already been mentioned; this knocks down a little bit of the high end frequencies and cleans up the tone by not hitting the V1 tube so hard. The tone knob is adjusted to taste. I find that on almost all electric guitars, there is a point in the tone knob sweep where the tone changes significantly in a very short amount of travel; I think of this as the "resonant frequency" (it probably isn't really that) and I like to be just on the bright side of that spot. Some people will find that to be unacceptably dull.

    Pickup height adjustment is also a factor, if that can be changed. This may be hard to do if it's a floating pickup but if the pickup is mounted into the top, lowering it away from the strings can help mellow out the sound a lot. Picking around the end of the fingerboard will also round out the sound.
    Yes! With my ES-175, I use both pickups, set pretty low in their rings, and twiddle the v/t controls in the 4-6 range to sit right in the mix. I have the idea this results in a quasi-parametric action to alter the "resonant peaks" (as you say, probably not technically correct) but I know what I mean, and I know it works finding a space amongst the horns and whatnot. This with a Deluxe Reverb Reissue, not wildly different than a Princeton.

  20. #19
    Thanks to everyone for the replies, sorry for the late reply. I'd like a dark, round, soupy tone; not too bright. I hate giving examples because I'm obviously no where in the league of any good guitarists who could play any guitar and make it sound good. But OK, Pat Metheny on "Go (Get It)", Barney Kessel on "Begin the Blues," or Adam Rogers on his Sight album.

    I tried an AER, which I love for gypsy jazz guitar, but they made the Eastman sound like almost too acoustic-y. I also tried the Roland, it was just too bright. So was the Acoustic. What I meant by harsh was when I played upper strings beyond 9th fret, I got a loud, nasally tone. I changed picks and cut my fingernails, still sounded too bright and brittle (better adjectives).

    I love Princeton's reverb and tremolo with other guitars. And having owned a few solids and tubes, I wanted to try the tube sound. I got the '65, not the '68 version, because the dealer said my Eastman would be better with scooped mids. But agree with one poster here about sparkle, it can have that spanky sound.

    I have something dialed in for now: I plugged into input 2, set guitar v=8 and t=2, the amp is set to t=4 b=5 rev=2 and no trem for now. V=4 for input 2 and v=3 for input 1 and I put it the amp on a rug instead of the wood floor. i also set my chair up to avoid feedback. I'm far from being an audio expert, so thanks for all the suggestions.

    But still looking on the market. I've not played a Henriksen yet (or even ever seen one, oddly), looking at others.

    Thanks again
    Last edited by garthmoore; 01-23-2022 at 06:46 PM.

  21. #20

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    Dark and soupy with stellar reverb and tremolo: Swart AST.

    Atomic Space Tone ~ All tube 20w 6V6/6L6 amplifier by swart amplifier co

    Harsh Fender Princeton Tones and other amps-jpg

  22. #21

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    You definitely want to look into replacing V1.

    I myself play through a DRRI and changing the V1 and V2 12AX7's to 12AT7's significantly changed the amp. Not only did it lower the overall loudness of the amp (which is fine by me as I have never had a practical application for that stock amp at 8-10 volume in real life) but it raised the breakup threshold so high that true distortion is virtually unattainable unless I really crank the guitar and amp settings. The result is a great amp for small rooms with plenty of clarity and balance at a variety of volume settings. The high end still has a sparkle to it but it is by no means harsh. I think of the swap as neutering your amp in a sense.

    Also, I have generally found the best results by turning the amp up as loud as you can stand and then use the guitar volume knob and your own attack to control the overall loudness- I get a MUCH more responsiveness out of my amp using it in this way.

    Best of luck.

  23. #22

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    OK, I think the dealer who made that recommendation on that amp steered you a bit wrong. Archtop guitars generally do not sound their best (IMHO, YMMV) for jazz with amps that have a lot of scooped mids. The jazz tone lives pretty much in the mid range. Rockabilly and country are a different story; the scooped mids suit those styles of music well.

    With the knob settings on your amp that you described, there is still a lot of mid cut happening there. Putting the treble on the amp down to 0 may help. That sounds extreme, but with the Fender tone stack that's the way it goes.

  24. #23

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    Lots of good advice here, and I would add that you can add an EQ pedal to supply the missing mids control in these amps and it works great.

  25. #24

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    I've never played a "harsh" fender. They are the definition of fat and warm.

  26. #25

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    If the amp is new, could it be that the speaker is just breaking in? Generally a new speaker will sound harsh, and will mellow out significantly after a few dozen hours of playing.

    So bear with it for a few weeks, or leave it playing with a looper a few hours at a time, and then decide on it ..